Spiritual Gifts and the Sovereignty of God
Aug 12th, 2009 by Nathan White
The subject of miraculous spiritual gifts is certainly a controversial topic in the church today. Do the gifts of miraculous tongues, revelatory prophecy, and healing continue today as they did during the period when the New Testament was written?
I am under the firm persuasion that the miraculous gifts we read of in the book of Acts and 1 Corinthians are *not* normative for the church today, and that these gifts slowly ceased/died out with the completion of the canon of scripture.
There are many reasons why I am convinced that my ‘cessationist’ position is both biblical as well as consistent with experience, some of which I have written about on this blog before.
But there is one chief reason why I am a cessationist; there is one argument for the cessationist position that I consider to be insurmountable: the sovereignty of God.
Though the popular church has largely lost this doctrine in our day, God is absolutely sovereign over the affairs of men. Particularly, He is sovereign in dispensing His saving grace, and in regenerating, justifying, and sanctifying His chosen race. Within the Reformed tradition, which I myself align with, the sovereignty of God is never questioned –as scripture seems to be very clear and explicit in this area. But what baffles me is how some Calvinistic brethren (Wayne Grudem, for example) completely toss out this issue of sovereignty when it comes to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
If the miraculous gifts were still being granted by the Holy Spirit, then we would not only see them active down through church history (which they weren’t), but we’d see them active in our churches today –and this *despite* the unwillingness of some to admit the gifts continue.
Let me illustrate by giving an example:
John MacArthur pastors a very large church. The gospel is clearly and consistently preached there as it has been for 40 years now. The church is full of thousands of real, solid, Christ-centered Christians who would never grieve the Holy Spirit willingly.
And yet, the gifts of tongues/prophecy/healings are absent from that assembly, as they have been for 40years (and more). Why, in a body of believers that large, would gifts critical to the building up of the church be completely absent?
Of course, non-cessationists will point to the fact that MacArthur is and always has been a firm cessationist, and thus the Spirit doesn’t move when He is ‘quenched’ by unbelief. But I fail to see from scripture where the sin, will, or unbelief of man has ever stopped the sovereignty of God from fulfilling His purposes. And since these gifts are absent from MacArthur’s church and thousands of bible-believing churches like them, we must come to one of two conclusions:
-The church is full of unbelievers devoid of the Spirit.
-The Holy Spirit is not sovereign over the sin/intellect/will of man.
I reject both of these premises, thus I am a cessationist. The Holy Spirit is not hindered from fulfilling His purposes. He is sovereign, man is not. He bestows gifts as He wills; man does not ‘decide’ whether he likes his gift, approves of the practice, or is open to the idea.
Consider this text as I conclude my point:
1 Sam 19:19-24: “Now David fled and escaped, and he came to Samuel at Ramah and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and lived at Naioth. And it was told Saul, “Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah.” Then Saul sent messengers to take David, and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. When it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied. Then he himself went to Ramah and came to the great well that is in Secu. And he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?” And one said, “Behold, they are at Naioth in Ramah.” And he went there to Naioth in Ramah. And the Spirit of God came upon him also, and as he went he prophesied until he came to Naioth in Ramah. And he too stripped off his clothes, and he too prophesied before Samuel and lay naked all that day and all that night. Thus it is said, “Is Saul also among the prophets?””
Here we have Saul, breathing threats and murders on his way to kill the Lord’s servant David, and he and all his messengers are overcome by the Holy Spirit when attempting to follow through with their evil deeds.
The the will/desires/inclinations/sin of man is no match for the sovereignty of God, chiefly, the sovereignty of God the Holy Spirit. If miraculous gifts were still active in the church today, God would be dispensing them broadly and equally throughout the church –despite the doctrinal persuasions or refusal of man to accept them.
That’s why I’m a cessationist.
Well structured post. I would like to encourage a different facet of this gem however…
You said at the end of your post,
What if…
God does not recognize our organizations and institutions as His church? If the gifts are supposed to be active in the NT church of Acts et al., then as you conclude the gifts should be in the church today if they are still active. Hence, if we don’t see them in action then it is quite possible we aren’t recognizing the true church anymore.
I am not arguing that the charismatic/pentacostal folks have the true church. I am merely positing that the possiblity that we aren’t “doing” church as God’s church but rather our own construction.
Personally, I am a “nearly” cessationist. I believe fully in the whole of gifting but what passes for gifts today is 99% counterfiet. We just don’t recognize God moving anymore. But we imagine Him moving all the time.
Scott-
You make a great point. Let me clarify by saying that the ‘church’ per se is not a particular organization or institution, but is the entire body of Christ scattered across the globe.
Now, with this scattered body across the globe, it could be argued that these miraculous gifts are being manifest in the church as a whole, though not in every church as an individual institution.
But my point was that we observe large bodies of believers who know nothing of these gifts, and strangely enough, wherever there are believers gathered who do not *believe* in the continuity of the gifts, they mysteriously never show up. And since my presupposition is that the Spirit is sovereign and not that man can ‘refuse’ these gifts, the point of this post isn’t undermined when we look at the church as a whole rather than breaking it up and looking at it institution by institution.
But now to your question:
Yeah, I don’t share this sentiment. I believe that our ‘doing’ does not affect the manifestation of God’s gifts to His church –at least over the long haul. Yeah, Jonah can run for a while, but eventually the Spirit has His way.
Agreed. And a necessary inference from my thesis is that where the gifts are showing up, they are most likely counterfiet. Why? Because their only showing up where they are already expected and accepted; their not showing up where believers are not convinced they will happen.
Good thoughts
“I am merely positing that the possiblity that we aren’t “doing” church as God’s church but rather our own construction.”
This assumed part of the very thesis of the post. Our doing or not doing is not assistance nor hinderance to the work of the Holy Spirit. Surely one cannot say that the Corinthians were doing church rightly yet the Holy Spirit was still active. And why? Paul expained that it is the Holy Spirit who distributes the gifts severally as he chooses and works them. They are not left to the personal choice of the individual.
Which leads to the question, why do Calvinistic charismatics insist on denying the sovereignty of God in the occasion of the Spiritual gifts? The example of Saul’s servants being overwhelmed by the Spirit is a good point. And even if one argues that they were unbelievers and that God was demonstrating his power over evil, that also argues for Nathan’s point. The manifestation of his power is not according to either our strengths or weaknesses. And we must remember that men of old spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. That fits best with Corinthians only when we consider He alone to be able to choose who, when, what and where He will dispense his power and demonstrate Himself sovereign over all things.
Admin note here: because of some rather explosive comments that have appeared in the moderation que, let me set two guidlines for commenting on this post:
-If you are not convinced of the sovereignty of God in salvation, commonly called Calvinism or a branch of Reformed Theology, please do not comment here. This post wasnt written to debate the Gifts per se, but simply to look at the subject from Calvinistic presuppositions.
-If you cannot state your agreement/disagreement in a paragraph or two, rather than a treatise longer than my original post, it will not be approved.
That should help this conversation from getting out of hand.
Thanks
Just a note of clarification, most Charismatics are not Calvinist’s, they are Armenians! But the Charismatics who are Calvinist that I know beleive in the Sovereignty of God, even some Armenians too! But the scriptures uses the word, DESIRE SPIRITUAL GIFTS & DESIRE TO BE A BISHOP! The HOLY SPIRIT seems to work best in the lives of those who apply the scriptures with passionate human desire, responsibility and action. It’s funny that those who DESIRE TO PROPHESCY find the gift added to their ministry lives! The kjv even uses the strong word “covet” instead of desire. Why would a cessationist ever desire the gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT, if they have been taught the false position that they do not exist. Hense once again your doctrine dictates your deeds! No wonder they are absent from your assemblies! You don’t ask, seek or knock, so you don’t receive, find or get open doors!
Nathan, just how many times in your spiritual life has God sovergnly interveined without any effort on your part whatsoever? It seldom happens because God in principle does not usually work that way!
I know many Christians who have a teaching gift in their lives who do nothing for JESUS! I bet you read and study alot, that’s why we come here and read your posts! It’s not your gifting but your obedience, action and effort that makes the difference!!!
LARRY GAMBOA
I must agree with Nathan. IMO, the sovereignty of God is the most compelling argument for cessationism. Spirit-empowered gifts cannot be confined to a single denomination.
And just where does that gift of human (I think you meant spiritual) passion come from, hmm? Maybe it could be:
Perhaps a passionate spiritual desire would first humble itself under the sovereignty of God and deny the self-will of man the pleasure of beating God to the punch.
Actually the Scripture I quoted refutes that. It is indeed the exact opposite though it might seem to passionate humans to come first from their end. I am sure that Adam didn’t first believe that his creation was according to his willing desire. Nor is it ever true that we first loved God. The typical, no, the always it works this way, is that God is the first sovereign initiator of all that takes place in creation.
Nathan probably does this out of the same fear and trembling reflected in the verse I quoted or as Paul said, “Woe is me if I do not preach the Gospel.” Holy Spirit initiated fear of God is a good motivator, don’t you think? And it cannot, no not ever, be that it is generated from within the passionate human nature. Instead, it is a free gift of God generously bestowed upon his children. But as all gifts they are without remittance, perfect coming down from the Fahter of lights. So the claim that someone has a teaching gift and doesn’t use it is bogus. For it is not the individual who uses the Holy Spirit to further his ends, but the Holy Spirit who works all these gifts as he pleases for the glory of God, period.
[...] August 14, 2009 by jmug Here is a great post by Nathan White on the Spiritual Gifts and the Sovereignty of God. [...]
I have an interesting note on this topic. A christian brother I know used to be a hard-core atheist. We were talking one day and he confided in me that he had spoken in tongues when he was a new beliver. He told me that he had no idea what had happened to him, that in essence the Spirit had done this of His own will. I know this is no arguement as it is second hand and anecdotal, but I think in this case it would be an example of the cessationalist position, as it was not a gift “practiced”, but a gift “given”. Thoughts?
Hey Nathan!
Just a few clairifications!
Davide said that the HOLY SPIRIT POWER GIFTS were confined to a single denomination. BALDERDASH!!! This is another misrepresentation of the truth of God’s movements in the earth. Here are just a few groups who believe and see the power of God moving in their assemblies on a regular basis. the Assemblies of God, Foursquare, Pentacostal Holiness, Pentacostal church of God in Christ, Calvary Chapel, Vineyard Churches, Restoration Churches, Faith movement or word churches & the Charismatic churches. These just off the top of my head and I’m sure someone’s going to be mad at being left out! The denominations that believe in cessation are the one’s which had their revivals before 1906. I hold the position that God has been restoring new truth from the scriptures through all of the Christian denominations, but each progressive move of God is nearly always rejected by all of those who preceeded them. As the Lutheran persecuted the anabaptist movement and the doctrine of water baptism by immersion, even murdering some of them in the baptism waters.
Now God never imposes or forces his will on a Christian speaking in tongues. The scripture says: THEY SPOKE and the SPIRIT gave them UTTERANCE. Notice the cooperation needed. But SATANIC TONGUES in false religions can be FORCED, I’ve seen it! Those who do not want to speak in tongues NEVER do! Those who maintain the position that if God wants me to speak in tongues he knows where I live…well the HOLY SPIRIT just does not come knocking at their doors or churches. Shoot he just moves on to the willing!
Lastly, when someone believes in Divine Sovereignty till is becomes fatalism, they fall into scriptural err! At some point Divine sovereignty runs into human neglect, stubbornness, rebellion, refusing to go to church, refusing to submit to pastorial authority, rufusing to tithe, general acts of disobedience, etc! God will not always strive with man! If the Christian has no responsibility to obey God and the pure teachings of scripture then why will they be judged for the things done while in the body. The Soverengnty of God could just over power them. But as we all know and experience, God seldom choses this method. King Saul was very lucky he was not consumed by the fire of God like Nadab, Abihu, and the captians of 100: God still had another plan for his life and chose to intervein. But he only prophescied ONCE! Saul was a carnal man who seldom sought and inquired of the Lord! DO YOU REMEMBER SAUL’S END?
NATHAN: King Saul is a terrible example to set before the Christian people as an example of how to be used in the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, and maybe the worst! I QUESTION YOUR CLOSED HEART & YOUR TRUE MOTIVES on this subject you know so little about! BUT YOUR REALLY GREAT OF MANY OTHER THINGS!
LARRY GAMBOA
P.S. Last week a clogged colon which the doctors could not clear by medicine and surgery could not be done because of a bad heart condition was heal in a single day! The obedient prayers of 10 prayer warriors and one disciple who went and laid hands on him and commanded it to move and release in JESUS name were the means of this miracle attest to by the doctor and the man healed.!
NATHAN YOUR MISSING OUT!
Interesting article. In relationship to the sovereignty of God to the Gifts of the Spirit, consider Martyn Llyod Jones thoughts:
The miracles, including the power of healing, were always something occasional, determined by the Spirit…All these gifts, as I shall be emphasizing, are under the sovereignty of the Spirit. He decides when and how and where. We must never think of it as automatic, that you just pull a lever and there it is, it has all happened. That is entirely foreign to the New Testament. A power was given, a commission was given on particular occasions, and then the miracles happened (pg. 43)
The…position is that of those who assert that the full and miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit ought always to abide in the church, and that it is only from want of faith that we do not possess them now…The teaching of the Scripture is that these things are to be considered in terms of the lordship of the Spirit. It is he who decides. “He giveth to every many severally as he wills.” It is he who chooses (pg. 47).
We must not say “only” for New Testament times nor must we say “always.” The answer is, “as he wills,” as the Spirit wills. It is always right to seek the fullness of the Spirit – we are exhorted to do so. But the gifts of the Spirit are to be left in the hands of the Holy Spirit himself (pg. 48).
Just a note of clarification?
“….The sovereignty of God, chiefly, the sovereignty of God the Holy Spirit, is no match for the will/desires/inclinations/sin of man…..”.
Hmmmmm?
How is it this way? I would think it is just the opposite as in the will/desires/sin of man is no match for God’s Sovereignty?
Any thoughts? Maybe I need you to interpret that for me??
I do admit, I am slow of heart to believe, as in stupid!
thanks
Another point of clarification!
Peter said: Silver and gold have I none, but such as I HAVE, give i thee. He possessed the apostalic gift, eldership gift and at least one of the 3 power gifts, healing, miracles or faith. Gods gifts like salvation reside in the believer. It is the UPON ANOINTING not just the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT given at the new birth. That is why the apostle Paul told Timothy to STIR UP THE GIFT, that was given you by the laying on of my hands!
Again within the gracious leadership of the HOLY SPIRIT, a human being must passionately stir into blaze his particular gifting to ever see miracles. Why do you have such trouble seeing that God wants to use his servants. In isa and jer. is says that God looked for a man to stand in the gap and make up the hedge, (but as in your case) he found none……so he just did it himself! Your scriptural err on this subject is very large and near blasphemy of the HOLY SPIRIT! Just go back and read my posts and see how many times I have had to correct things with scripture. If you take this same lax spiritual attitude in dispensing the gift of salvation, NO ONE WILL BE SAVED IN YOUR ASSEMBLIES JUST LIKE NO ONE IS BEING HEALED IN THEM TODAY!!! GOD CHOSES TO USE THE ON FIRE CHRISTIAN WITH IS SOVEREIGN GIFTS OF GRACE! Tell me please why only 10% of the Christian church has ever led another person to Jesus Christ, when GOD is soveriegn and could just intervein himself? He is looking for the obedient, spirit filled on fire believer to WORK WITH HIM, not just watch him!!!
LARRY GAMBOA
@LARRY GAMBOA
I personally adhere to the continuation of the Gifts of the Spirit as yourself. In your zeal and passion I would like to encourage you to consider a few things, especially in the manner in which you comment.
First, you have many good and valid points, but like a porcupine no one is going to want to get close to you (in this case here what you’re saying, especially when demeaning others and considering that they are blaspheming the Holy Spirit).
Second, the GIfts of the Spirit do not simply reside in the believer to the point that we can activate them at our whimsical desire. The passage in relationship to stirring the gift within you needs to be read in light of the entire N.T. For instance, none of the Apostles healed on command. We see this in Acts as well as in Paul’s letters when we consider he encouraged – I think Titus – to drink a little wine for his stomach ailment. It is obvious that Paul did not have the ability to instantaneously heal him.
Thanks for your contributions. I think you mean well in what you say, but in the way you say it you discredit yourself.
No one is saying that GOD cannot overpower or intervein in any situation. He can do whatever He wills at any time and in any place. But the obivious things we see and see them all the time is that GOD most times chooses to work in willing passionate believers! He REJECTS the proud, but gives GRACE (charisma) to the HUMBLE! Is anyone rejected or any church rejected by God based on this verse? Yes, those who were proud are also without the Gifts (CHARISMA) of grace!
If in my zeal I have offended anyones feelings I apologize, but if I have trampled false positions on this doctrine, well it is needed!
I have to do it within the grace that God has given me…eat the meat and throw out the bones. As being discredited, that I have suffered many times! But i’m not looking for any credit, i’m just putting the necessary scriptures on the subject and pointing out the possible motives behind them. Shoot i’ve read their books, heard their sermons and experienced their bitter hatred of sincere believers and the resulting dictatorial authority! And frankly it has been my experience that they have neither the graces of 1 cor. 12 &14 nor the love of chapter 13! If that seems harsh read it gently!
The cessation position discredits the whole neo-pentacostal / charismatic churches & Jesus movements of the world as they are build on the foundation of Acts 2:38…REPENT, and be BAPTIZED, and you shall receive the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! To accept this cessation position we have to throw out much of the N.T. which then has no place in the church and is outdated, instead of being the very example of what the church should be modeling and striving for and becoming like! They would leave us with only Jn 3:16! We would then be left to go back to the very same dead churches that so many millions of believers have been leaving for several decades! NO POWER, NO WONDER! The pre- 1906 denominations have rejected 4 or 5 sovereign moves of God and the truths restored by these very evident abundantly fruitful revivals! You will know them by their fruit! I cannot just passively stand by and let outright lies and or miscommunications about these kinds of Christian churches go undefended. Mean while the old line denominations now sing praises to JESUS with the very worship songs written in all the revived churches that they reject as being heretical. I like the apostle Paul speak in tongues more than you all & will pray & sing with the SPIRIT! Forbid not to speak in tongues!
Who’d a thunk it?
Larry-
You’ve repeatedly broke two rules I requested those commenting to abide by:
-Make is short and sweet.
-Refrain from commenting if you do not hold to the sovereignty of God in all things, including in the predestination, election, and regeneration of sinners to salvation.
Please do not comment here again. I’m not trying to be harsh; I’m trying to keep this discussion sane and orderly. Thank you
Michael said:
Sorry for the confusion. I mean ‘no match’ as in God’s sovereignty trumps our wills, our desires, and our sin in all areas of life.
Just a note of clarification to all:
The sovereignty of God is not the ONLY reason I am a cessationist. There are many other reasons: the testimony of scripture, the closing of the canon of scripture, the ending of the apostolic office, the perfect sufficiency of scripture, the experience and testimony of church history, etc., that also aid my cessationist position.
I have chose not to bring up any of those in this post, but to rather emphasize what I believe to be one of the strongest arguments for my position. Thus, please do not think that if you can ‘prove’ that the sovereignty argument is fallacious, that you’ve convinced me or that you’ve proven my overall cessationist position to be incorrect. Let’s just leave the discussion at the Sovereignty of the Spirit and consider other arguments at another time. Thanks
Amen to “no match”. Hands down, at the end of the day the end of the day is still as the beginning, it’s still God’s!
How any sane rational soul can believe they have some part in bringing about their salvation is beyond my ability to comprehend it.
I am still not convinced the construct of the sentence says what you mean. But as I said as my disqualifier, I am stupid as in slow to comprehend things at times.
Thanks for the kind reply in any event. It speaks loudly to His humility at work in your life!
Hey Michael-
Maybe you’re right about the construction. I re-arranged it to make things more clear. Thanks for pointing this out. The post was written in hast, kind of ‘off the cuff’.
Grace and Peace
Using the passage from the Old Testament Book of 1 Samuel to buttress a cessationist viewpoint is weak and unconvincing. The Holy Spirit simply dealt with people differently during that time frame. He did not indwell the Old Testament believers but rather came upon only a select few of them and then only briefly for prophetic utterances and other displays of spiritual power (e.g. Samson). The Old Testament believers did not have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit–their hearts were not renewed. Hence the need for the New Covenant (see Jeremiah 31:33, which is referenced by Hebrews 10:15,16 ). The argument would be better served by pulling support from the New Testament, which simply cannot be done. In fact, the New Testament refutes the illustration. Certainly God can arrest unbelievers in their tracks, such as he did with Paul on the Damascus Road, however, this same Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 14:26-33 that the Spirit does not come upon believers and throw them into an uncontrolled frenzy:
“What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.”
It is obvious here that Paul wanted the Corinthians to control the expression of the Spirit’s gifting. They did not need to just uncontrollably blurt out whatever God gave them. And do we not recognize this with what we might call the non-spectacular gifting? Clearly teaching the Word of God is a gift of the Spirit (Romans 12:6-8). And yet teaching elders can control when, what, and how they actually teach. They are not seized like Saul, right?
Further, the premise is flawed. As we know, much of the New Testament writings are situational letters written by Paul or others as correctives to Churches. Paul did not say to them “God is absolutely sovereign so don’t worry about the errors of theology or praxis cropping up amongst yourselves. It’s all part of his plan.” No, he said things like, “You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion is not from him who calls you” (Gal 5:7,8). Obviously, Paul did not view God’s sovereignty as a guarantee that genuine believers could not wander from the way of the truth.
From Pentecost through Revelation, the New Testament milieu is thoroughly charismatic. To come to a cessationist conclusion is an argument from experience, not exegesis. It would be wise not to take that experience and declare it as universal truth.
Joseph said:
So you are going to argue that He is less powerful now?
Joseph said:
I understand your point in that the Spirit then worked differently that He does now, but ultimately I disagree with your dispensational logic here. The difference between Old and New is not in substance, but in quantity. The Spirit is poured out more abundantly to believers in the NT.
Furthermore, to say that the Spirit did not indwell every believer in the OT runs contrary to the presuppositional calvinism that I bring to this argument, and it would be a waste of time to argue any further.
Joseph said:
In John 11:51-52 we see another unbeliever, Caiphas, prophesy by the Spirit, though it occurred before Pentecost so you probably won’t count this as a NT example. Regardless, Jesus said in John 3: “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” –teaching us that the the Spirit is sovereign and does what He pleases.
Joseph said:
You miss my point. I’m not saying its uncontrollable. I’m not saying it seizes people like Saul every time. Certainly, like teaching or something, it could be controlled. In fact, your point breaks down when it comes to the issue of salvation. The Spirit doesn’t seize us uncontrollably. We can resist the Spirit; we can cling to our sin when the Spirit is convicting; we are not mindlessly pulled along to repentance in faith. But ultimately, our sin and our will is indeed overcome by Him because He is sovereign, and He is God. If He chooses us, we WILL do His will –though we must ultimately cooperate with Him (cooperate as in, He changes our will to where we turn to Him).
So my point is that the SINFULNESS of man cannot and will not habitually prohibit the Spirit from fulfilling His purposes in the church. For example, has there ever been true Christian who has failed to love others? Of course love is controllable. Of course we must put forth effort to love. But of course, it is a fruit of the Spirit that never fails to be demonstrated in the truly redeemed. Our sin, ultimately, habitually, and in the long run, does not stop the regenerated heart from loving.
The same with the gifts. Our sin cannot stop the gift of tongues from eventually being practiced. Our sin and unbelief are no match for a most Holy and Sovereign Spirit who has a very high purpose in working gifts in us: the building and edification of the church.
To say that we can ultimately and finally resist practicing tongues/prophesy/healings is to uplift the sovereignty of man above that of God, or it is to essentially say that we are devoid of the Spirit.
We do not sanctify ourselves; the Spirit does. We do not edify the church; the Spirit does. If you say He is sovereign in salvation, it is inconsistent to say that He’s not sovereign in other matters as well.
Joseph:
Not at all. I was convinced of cessationism because the clear testimony of scripture and the progress of redemptive history/revelation. Only afterwards did I see that the sovereignty of God answers those questions and more. Does experience play a role? Of course it does, but the testimony of scripture is even clearer.
@ Nathan,
You said,
First, I would really like to hear your response from my comment above (#11).
Second, keeping in mind the sovereignty of God we cannot say that we would this or that they would active. God is sovereign in dispensing the Gifts of the Spirit (I think 1 Cor. 12.11; Heb. 2.4 among others), consequently He has the right to impart them at any time for the glory of His Son Jesus Christ.
Looking forward to your response.
keep up the good work
Hi Jesse,
I agreed with the first two of the great Doctor’s quotes, but not the last one. To explain why would go into more reasons/testimony of scripture that convince me of cessationism, a subject I don’t care to open up here. The gifts have clearly ceased for good, IMO. I believe scripture teaches that very plainly.
Secondly, I agree with you on the sovereignty issue, but not in relation to the gifts. Properly understanding their original purpose of the gifts, as well as being honest in the text and treating them the same as the other gifts, necessitates that they be continual throughout history if they are continual at all. Has their ever been a period of history where the gift of love has failed to show up? What about the gift of teaching? Of course not. The gifts do not come and go; to say so is to simply make excuses for their absence –it’s not an argument based upon the text.
Thanks for the comment (and sorry for not responding to you earlier).
@ Nathan
No problem. I know that it is difficult to keep track of everything going on.
Personally, I’ve been a Christian for nearly 7 years. For more than 3 years I was caught-up in the Word of Faith movement and became very acquainted with many of their teachings, particularly Kenyon, Hagin, Copeland, and Capps. However, while in my first years of Seminary I learned how to study the Bible and have subsequently repented of many errors.
During that time of transition I no longer wanted to believe in the Gifts of the Sprit and was a staunch cessasionist for some time (this is when I began reading many of the Reformed teachers, such as Calvin, Bavinick, Hokema, Berkhof, Sproul, etc…). Needless to say I know embrace the continuation of the Gifts of the Spirit, but in a much different light than before.
I must respectfully disagree that the Scriptures do plainly teach the discontinuation of the Gifts. For me, this is not an issue I would push. Referring back to the Dr., it is not in preaching/teaching the gifts that is important, but in preaching/teaching about Christ.
Finally, although I agree with you that the existence of certain functions, such as teachers and preachers, has never ceased, I would argue the point that just because a person is serving in one of those capacities does not necessitate they have actually been given a gift of grace to do so.
Moreover, I never intended to mean that the gifts come and go. I was emphasizing that God can impart them whenever He desires, especially in teachers and preachers.
Jesse said:
Well, see I don’t agree here. I think God will not and even cannot impart them again because it would go against what He has said in other areas. That is, God is a God of consistency and order; He never repents.
Of course, I believe the doctrine of sola scriptura, the fact that we have ‘all things’ pertaining to life and godliness, the closing of the canon of scripture, and the finality of Christ as the final Prophet in Whom all the gifts reached their full and final pinnacle, necessitate that God *cannot* impart miraculous-revelatory gifts again…not because He lacks the power, but because He would be inconsistent and contrary to His previously stated will to do so.
But…that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms
@ Nathan
If you already have your thoughts posted elsewhere on cessationism, I would very much like to see them so that I may respond appropriately.
Of course God does not change. I do not disagree with you on that proposition at all. My difficulty that I have with the conclusion of your post and last response is that they are considered a logical fallacy “a priori,” which is more or less basing your argumentation from an assumed position to a necessary conclusion.
Sure the canon is closed and God is not imparting new revelatory knowledge that competes with it. You would do well to read Vern Poythress work on Modern Spiritual Gifts. In honesty, it would do you well in affirming the continuation of the Gifts of the Spirit within a cessationist framework.
Hi Nathan…. I was out doing a search and ran across your site.
YES GOD STILL SPEAKS TO PEOPLE ON EARTH TODAY!
I am proof of it.
Mark Sanford is running away from me…. just me… only me.
He’s the Governor of SC and I am a sick lady.
I promise you one thing, it’s dark running from light Man.
Get the book The Family pronto. The Family is attempting to coup the United States of America. I stand alone against them. Pray for me please.
And remember this…. GOD DOES SPEAK and GOD STILL ACTS !!
Why do you presuppose that no one in John MacArthur’s church (for example) has experienced these “Spiritual gifts”? I – and I know many others – have been “incognito” in Reformed churches for years because we value sound exegesis/doctrine and are content to be where God has sovereignly placed us without being divisive. I count other things as more central to Christianity. Some friends who have been “surprised” in times of personal worship by unexpected “groanings that cannot be uttered” but that sound suspiciously like another language, have simply moved quietly to other non-cessationist congregations. Also, gifts like prophecy need not be delivered in a way that begins “thus saith the Lord:” They can still benefit the cessationist members of His body if shared with wisdom.
Hi Nathan. Concerning my comment that the Spirit worked differently in the OT you said:
No way! I only meant to suggest that supporting a position against the continuation of NT gifts of the Spirit might be better served by alluding to the NT because I am thinking there appeared to be a difference between pre- and post-Pentecost experience of him. Hence Jesus’ words to the apostles in John 14:16,17: “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth….You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. ” Isn’t Jesus indicating that his disciples were not yet indwelt by the Spirit? Also in John 16:7 Jesus states that “it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you.” Doesn’t the future sense used in both of these passages indicate that the disciples’ experience of the Holy Spirit would be different under the New Covenant? I’m not being dogmatic here; I’m just wanting to learn.
I don’t consider myself to be a dispensationalist, nor am I a Pentecostal, and I think Calvinism is the sanest theological position to take. I just wonder about these things from time to time. Thanks for the discussion!
Jesse,
While I am not a cessationist, I have to say, some of the reason why these debates are as they have become, and has brought people to a “framework” as this debate uncovers, is because of things like what you wrote above: “….You would do well to read Vern Poythress work on Modern Spiritual Gifts.”
Wouldn’t it be better to come into the debate from a foundation of “His Faith”, trusting that God is at work today and rely upon Scripture to establish the Truth you are writing about instead?
When you encourage another to “you do well to read”, the counter balance is, “well”, “you would do well to read” dada deda, yada, yada, yada?
Would you do us a favor and state your case from a framework with verses from Scripture and establish the fact from them that God is at work today by both His Spiritual Wisdom and Revelation?
Why do I ask that?
Well consider these words of Paul and let the Lord give you understanding, keeping in mind that both Jesus and Paul only prayed for “certain” kinds of people:
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
“to the saints who are [faithful in Christ Jesus:]
Eph 1:15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints,
Eph 1:16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers,
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Paul highlights the Wisdom of God by writing “for this reason”, “I heard of your [faith] and [your love for all the saints]“.
Jesus prayed the same and I suppose that’s why Paul picks up on praying for those found “faithful” and full of “His Love for the Saints” the way we see he does. Here is the way Jesus prayed for those found in His Faith and Love:::>
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
Joh 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
Joh 17:10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
King Solomon, in my opinion said it best with regard to establishing the Truth of God and His Word of Grace in “all generations”, here:::>
Pro 11:28 Whoever trusts in his riches will fall, but the righteous will flourish like a green leaf.
Pro 11:29 Whoever troubles his own household will inherit the wind, and the fool will be servant to the wise of heart.
Pro 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise.
Pro 11:31 If the righteous is repaid on earth, how much more the wicked and the sinner!
Anyway, that was a lot of response from me to just those words of yours” “you would do well to read”.
@ Michael
Why would I suggest anothers work instead of providing my personal thesis on a comments section? Because they have said what I would like to say already, so there is no need to repeat it; therefore, instead of rewriting Book, Chapter, Verse, I simply refer.
Besides, God has given to the church shepherds and teachers to build up His people (Eph 4.12). Although this is the case, we still need to juxtapose what is said by another with the Scriptures (2 Tim. 3.16) as the Berean Jews once did (Acts 17.11).
For the sake of brevity, if I’m aware of another person’s work that has done an excellent job on the topic, then I would prefer that person to their writings. it is for this reason that they would do well.
On another note, I don’t understand what you shared from Ephesians and eslewhere applied to your comment. Was is supposed to apply, or were you just providing an example?
By the way, did you find my comments offensive? If so, how?
Thanks for your help and words
Jesse,
I didn’t find anything offensive, quite the contrary. It wasn’t for me or for you that I made my comments to you.
In the body of my comments above to you, I wrote: “….and let the Lord give you understanding….”. Apparently He has not so why should I attempt to put over an understanding of these things He reserves for Himself? Everything in this vein is by Revelation from Above. Faith comes by Hearing the Word of God, not the interpretations of men about the Word of God. Once the revelation has come, then it would be appropriate to point someone to the writings of others who put the revelation in a better light than we could, if we can’t do it by our own personal thesis.
How does it go? Direct revelation is the strongest. A personal thesis of it is the next best thing to it. But humility dictates, if they ain’t getting it, remember direct revelation is the strongest. If they are getting it, humility also dictates deference to another’s personal thesis over our own:::> Php 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Php 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
As you must be aware, God does things differently than we?
For instance, neither of them, of the Triune, speaks directly for Himself. Each is speaking about or for the others.
A case in point would be these verses from Matthew, that Matthew obviously was “given an understanding” of, as we see here:
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
What is embedded in there is the presupposition, based on verse 28, that Our Heavenly Father has “revealed” Christ to those listening to Jesus, i.e. verse 27 in order for them to “come to Him”, that is, Christ.
It’s a mystery that it is by Christ’s Will that I know God My Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost here on earth. It is a mystery that no man knows Christ but by a revelation given to them by God the Father through the voice of God, the Holy Ghost. Peter describes it this way:
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Jesse, you wrote: “….Why would I suggest anothers work instead of providing my personal thesis…”. I wasn’t suggesting either. In fact I was suggest that you do neither. Instead, I was suggesting you use the Scriptures to tell us what your position is and leave it up to the Holy Ghost to give the understanding to the readers in here of a different persuasion.
I understood you. I cannot say I understand you as I ought or will in time, but not for a moment was there any offense taken or misunderstanding with regard to what I read you wrote as a comment in here. Again, we are not cessationists. Others are.
Finally, you also wrote: “….On another note, I don’t understand what you shared from Ephesians and elsewhere applied to your comment. Was is supposed to apply, or were you just providing an example?….”.
All I will add is an admonition to go back and with your thinker, step back and see my point that both Jesus and Paul specifically “prayed” for others in their particular sphere who have manifesting a “certain” fruit of the Holy Ghost, as in, “faithfullness” and “Love” for the Saints. Using that basis I was segwaying to your attempt to put over why the Spiritual Gifts are active and abundant within the True Born Again, Spirit Filled Church of this century.
Hope that clarifies what my intent was in commenting? If not, please don’t hesitate to dig a bit deeper or ask more questions for clarity?
Michael said: “Faith comes by Hearing the Word of God, not the interpretations of men about the Word of God.”
Michael- do you read the scriptures in the original Greek/Hebrew, or through an English translation?
I do both.
In fact I have been looking into Aramaic too.
I am not fluent.
Why do you ask?
I sat under a Greek scholar many many years ago when I was first starting out in the Ministry.
I am no scholar.
@Michael
Ok thanks for the clarification.
In regards to this comment,
Michael, I like to challenge you on a couple of points for mutual encouragement
Two things. First, God gives revelation by His sovereign will (Eph. 1.18-20). It is for this reason that we are to seek Him for it. Second, If faith comes by hearinig and not the interpretation of men, how are people going to hear if there is not one sent to speak to them? (Romans 10.14-21). With this there are two additional points to consider.
One, you read the passage out of context. Two, if we are not to hear men’s interpretations of the Scriptures, then why should I adhere to your position?
@ Nathan: Learning to do both in school!
Jesse,
thanks for keeping an open mind. I believe you will learn something from both God and man as Jesus did too:::>
Luk 2:51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.
You asked or inferred: “…. Second, If faith comes by hearinig and not the interpretation of men, how are people going to hear if there is not one sent to speak to them? (Romans 10.14-21). …”.
There is a very big difference in God “putting” His Faith in the mind and heart of a man and a man proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom by the Power of the Holy Ghost.
Man doesn’t “make” Faith happen in another man. Man or God or an Angel speaks directly to those “who” have “ears” given to them to hear and receive the Faith once delivered to the Saints.
As for you next point. Be more specific where I took Scripture out of context.
As for you third and final point in this dialogue now, you obviously missed my understanding. Let me highlight it as it should help you understand what I am saying: “…..Once the revelation has come, then it would be appropriate to point someone to the writings of others….”.
We are knocking at this door:
Mat 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”
Mat 13:11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Mat 13:12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Does that help?
In any event I want to thank Nat for letting us have this side bar at his expense!
Thanks Nat.
Thanks Jesse for asking!!
Michael,
The reason I ask is because the translations of the scripture are a form of interpretation of the scripture. Maybe I misunderstood you, but driving a wedge between the explicit text and the interpretation of the explicit text is off base. Yes, we DO learn by the interpretations of men about the Word of God. If fact, if I’m not mistaken, that’s what the original text of Romans 10 says: “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word (or message) of (concerning) Christ.”
The Ethiopian eunuch is one example. Reading the Word wasn’t enough for him…and it isn’t enough for us. It must be preached and/or interpreted to us.
That’s all I wanted to say; don’t really care to discuss it much further or the rest of the topics you guys have been talking about.
SDG
John 14:11-14, Jesus speaking, “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”
Don’t the verses above say that “anyone” who has faith in Jesus will do what Jesus had been doing – with no historic time-frame attached? Jesus went on to say we “will do even greater things than these” after speaking of belief “on the evidence of the miracles themselves”. Doesn’t that say those who believe will do even greater miracles through the Holy Spirit in Jesus name?
Matthew 15:58, speaking of Jesus, “And he did not do many miracles there [His home town] because of their lack of faith.” Could it be that the Holy Spirit will withhold miracles if we lack faith that He will do the same in these end days?
Nathan,
In regards to the question?
Two responses, the first is that while there are certain gifts in the church Dr. MacArthur oversees are less prevalent than others, I would not say that they do not exist there, even if you never have a “pentecostal” breakout. It would seem that simply because one does not call a the gift of wisdom the gift of wisdom, but perhaps good counsel, it does not follow that the particular gift is absent, simply mislabeled. Likewise do when members of his, or your fellowship falls ill, are we to think that they do not pray for their local brothers and sisters healing? Finally if we take a New Testament understanding of prophecy described in 1 Corinthians as a divine inspiration enabling the possessor to speak direct messages of the Holy Spirit for the spiritual profit of the hearer, is this not what Dr. MacArthur is doing when he preaches the Gospel of Salvation by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone unto the Glory of God alone?
The second and more brief response is if a main reason you believe in the cessation of spiritual gifts is because of God’s Sovereignty, couldn’t the same argument be used in response to say Tim Keller’s rather large congregation of believers being built up while rejecting view of Believer’s Baptism? Baptism seems far more critical in the New Testament than the spiritual gifts but I don’t think anyone would make that argument.
IMHO a major reason, if not the major reason, a lot of people are cessationists is because of the unbiblical nature of the pentecostal movement’s use of so called spiritual gifts, tossing the baby out with the bath water.
Matthew-
My point is that tongues, gifts of healings, and prophesy (which includes foretelling the future) are never found among believers who do not give lip-service to their continuity. And since I believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation and in the Spirit working His grace/gifts through me apart from my own depravity, the only consistent, logical, and yes biblical position is that the miraculous gifts as we see practiced in the New Testament are no longer operative in the church today.
It isn’t a matter of doctrine (like baptism), but one of spiritual gifts of the Spirit. The Spirit works love in me even though my nature opposes God love at its core. I may fail often to love, but because I am a believer my life *will* be marked with love –otherwise I am devoid of the Spirit. Thus, our options would be: are cessationists devoid of the Spirit, or is the Spirit simply not sovereign?
Thanks for your comment though. I hope you’ll come back again, for I might write again on this subject and open up some additional discussion.
yes, these people are all spiritual rebels and babies. They seek glory for themsleves and have it—- Right now, as we praise their efforts to put themselves, their baptisms, their rituals, their babblings, false prophets above God Almighty.
That way it’s never really our fallen state of complete depravity
lifted up by his death on the cross
no…it’s always some work they do to show they are better and oh, so holy
yet, the country went to pot
kids are dying
politicians are lying
joel olsteen is even on the boob Tube
all liars
“Let God be true and Everyman a liar”
Don’t hear that verse much.
K