Controversy and Pulled Magazines over Female Pastors
Sep 20th, 2008 by Nathan White
In my hometown newspaper this week, the Atlanta Journal Constitution, there is an article published concerning female pastors and the Southern Baptist Convention’s bookstore, LifeWay Christian Bookstore. You can read the full article here. Or, on Foxnews.com, here.
The controversy surrounds a recent cover story in the Christian magazine (a Fayetteville, GA published magazine), Gospel Today, and a cover photo picturing five female pastors. In short, LifeWay Christian Bookstore pulled the magazine off their shelf, and the explanation why read:
“Chris Turner, a spokesman for Lifeway Resources, which runs the stores for the Southern Baptist Convention, said, “It is contrary to what we believe.”
Now, let me say that I agree with LifeWay and Chris Turner on pulling this off their shelves; the scriptures, and the Baptist Faith and Message, are fairly cut-and-dry on the male/female roles of leadership in the church. But nevertheless, having walked through a LifeWay store many times in the recent months, clearly they have much bigger issues concerning what’s on their shelves than a magazine promoting female pastors.
In other words, I believe that LifeWay has its priorities way out of line, as a substantial portion of the books they stock and sell are not faithful to the scriptures and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why would we care about LifeWay taking a stand on female pastors if they cannot take a stand on what accords with sound doctrine, and, subsequently, guarding the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Let us encourage LifeWay to not stop with this magazine only, but to probe deeper into what they allow on their shelves –as this instance clearly reveals that the have at least some standard regarding what they stock, which is more we can say for other ‘Christian’ bookstores.
[...] Nathan White has a word to add on his blog: Now, let me say that I agree with LifeWay and Chris Turner on pulling this off their shelves; the scriptures, and the Baptist Faith and Message, are fairly cut-and-dry on the male/female roles of leadership in the church. But nevertheless, having walked through a LifeWay store many times in the recent months, clearly they have much bigger issues concerning what’s on their shelves than a magazine promoting female pastors. [...]
I am so Godly hurt to discover this position from a Christian organization as it applies to the recent Gospel Today magazine. It proves that they are identical to the Pharisees exemplifying religiosity and manipulating Scripture for their WORLDLY gain. “…your sons AND daughters shall prophesy” Is that not the WORD of God? The message to the seven churches in Revelation admonishes those who say they are of the Lord Jesus Christ to beware of their actions done in His name. “…harden not your hearts” Southern Baptist Convention! To show the conflict of their standard: They support and promote Beth Moore. Her work is evangelistic, spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ; ministering to souls, as the pastor does. She is not bound in her works to any certain church and conveniently seems to carry out these works in general facilities. Yet, in their own manipulated biases, because she is not bound by title, their organization has deemed her works approved. Hypocritical to say the least. If she were to hold the title to support the work she does, what then would their position become? Dig into the Scriptures deeper – these references were the OPINION of Paul, Timothy, etc….NOT the mandate of the Lord! In the order of Spiritual things, woman is not denied the right to spread the Gospel (Mary Magdalene and women upon seeing Christ in ascension; Matthew 28), yet in doing all things must be obedient to the call of God and submissive to His authority first and then man’s.
A Woman under the Lord’s Authority.
Kingz Daughter,
You made many assertions.
How does this prove such a thing? In what way?
Whatever issues I may have with Beth Moore she is not a pastor nor does she purport to be one or on the same level as one. Why don’t you email her and see what she says about the issue?
Bro. Nathan,
Good word.
For the Kingdom,
Mark
Simply put Bro. John Mark – if she is not spreading the Gospel – then what then is she doing? Many women stand FOR THE KINGDOM (as referenced in your closure) as well. I pray many blessings and FULL revelation of TRUTH for all.
In what way you ask? Double standard.
If Christ commissioned women to speak no one person can retract it. He came for many and speaks through many. (Hence the donkey)
No efforts for a continual debate on differing perceptions, in the end as you know as a Christian – the Lord God will reveal the Truths and the False Prophesies.
May the Lord Bless and Keep You.
Kingz Daughter-
Beth Moore is not a pastor and her mission field is women, not men. She does not purport or even seek to be a teacher or leader of men. As a matter of fact, her view is the same as the Baptist view – that her husband is the spiritual leader in their household and she submits to his authority. I have heard her say it more than once. Further, the position of not being a woman pastor in no way, shape or form prohibits women from preaching the gospel. These are two completely different things. Everyone is called upon to be a witness and spread the gospel message. Not everyone is called upon and gifted to be a pastor.
The store is privately owned and can offer or pull whichever books they want.
But perhaps they should ask themselves, “What is the character of my God”. God’s character can be different to different people. He can have a loving character or a fearful character among the many. All that I read in the New Testament, speaks of God having a loving character and I refuse to take Him as any other way. I find it sad when people wish to make His character harsh, unbending and unloving to to absolutely everyone.
If some are so determined to use the Bible in ways because they fear for their own status, then why not use all of it literally. Read Leviticus. It is filled with things we should not be doing. One of them that comes to mind, is that we shall not touch the skin of an unclean animal. The skin of a pig would be included in the unclean. So I ask you, do you condemn touching a football? And do you promote that? Do you have yours sons wear gloves to play football? And why don’t you? Read on and you will find much more that is totally ignored while other words written in the Bible is taken for use of holding on to a status.
The certainty in my mind, is that God is loving and that we are all loved equally. And equally we are called to show His love to others. Shame on anyone that would take away the possibility of anyone (male or female) that can show God’s love to another.
I would encourage everyone with questions and opinions about women in ministry to visit this page
I think it’s a very good exegesis presented here.
I am thinking here what do you mean by literally? From where do you get what you believe if it is not literal? I am thinking you don’t know what literal means since the literal interpretation of Scripture would rule out your caricature of a literal reading. Perhaps you can explain how you come to an understanding of what Scripture teaches if you do not interpret literally?
Beyond that, the point of the post was not really the content of the magazine’s cover story. It was the hypocrisy that is LifeWay. It is a commercial enterprise and has no conscience when it comes to Selling Jesus.
LifeWay ranks among those whose memorabilia is on display at A Little Leaven.
LifeWay needs to clean its house of it commercialism and rid their inventories of all the garbage theology including Beth Moore.
Speaking of Beth Moore, while she is not a Pastor/Teacher, a role specifically assigned to men, her teaching is used by churches to teach men. In other words, she is a Pastor in a Box when her materials are used for bible classes as the texts of instruction. It would be one thing if it was a benign subject matter, but Beth Moore, whose theology fits warmly with the likes of Rick Warren and Robert Schuler, teaches theology and its application. She is revered as an pastoral instructor by women and men alike. That is a big problem. But the SBC and LifeWay could care less as long as populist authors sell texts and gain them cash and public currency.
LifeWay is SBC, it is its tempo and pulse. Like so much of the church growth world, however, it is a rotting corpse of psuedo-Chrisitianity: Basically she says, don’t let theology and doctrine confuse you when you can figure it out with God for yourself in a way that works for you. Unfortunately, people who use her materials can’t help but absorb some of that reasoning. Even more troubling is that they think they’re doing Bible study when they are really getting a heavy dose of mysticism, storytelling, psychology, and prosperity gospel. In the introduction to Believing God, Moore shows her true, but mistaken, agenda when she says, “I know I’m going to make it to heaven because I’ve trusted Christ as my Savior, but I want to make it to my Canaan on the way. I want to finish my race in the Promised Land, not in the wilderness. You too? Then we have to cash in our fear and complacency and spend all we have on the only ticket out: BELIEF.”
There are many worthy goals of Bible study, but securing heaven on earth is not one of them, at least for Reformed Christians. And the surest way to get off track is to add human effort to what God has already done in the cross of Christ, even when it’s called believing God or faith. Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace, whereby we receive and rest upon him alone for salvation. Everything else is of grace in the Christian experience, too, thanks be to God.
Beth Moore type materials is a far greater threat to historic orthodoxy than a magazine story about female pastors. That is the point. At LifeWay online resources you will not find John Calvin’s Institutes, and only three titles by Luther; Luther’s magnum opus is conspicuously missing. There is a selection of sound study materials at LifeWay, but LifeWay is in reality the Barnes & Noble of the SBC offering such garbage as Eldrige’s Wild At Heart and a host of other objectionable author’s and titles. The problem is credibility and not just the fact that LifeWife looses it in the eyes of the world, but the fact that the immature and innocent associate LifeWay with the SBC and an orthodox faith. Even if not intdended, that is a powerful endorcement of dangerous material. In sum, Nathan makes a great observation, LifeWay needs revival and not just a PC traditionalist whitewashing.
What a laugh — hair-splitting at its best!
Sorry I’m so late getting into this; been out of pocket the last few days.
First of all, the issue of female pastors is not really the topic of this post. I did not intend to defend LifeWay’s position; nor get into an argument about what scripture teaches.
I will say, however, that scripture is crystal-clear, in many places, that women have different roles than men do, in the home and in the church, and that it is a direct and serious violation of God’s revealed word for a woman to ‘pastor’ a church.
No, the scripture on this subject isn’t ‘Paul’s opinion’, as if we have the right to pick and choose what we would like and what we don’t like from his epistles. Instead, the Apostle Peter writes:
Here, Peter affirms that Paul’s word are scripture, and that it was (even then) common practice for “the ignorant and unstable” to “twist to their own destruction” his letters and writings! That, my friends, should have us all approach Paul’s letters with the utmost of reverence.
Of course, scripture does not prohibit a women from witnessing and spreading the gospel; the scriptures rather prohibit women from exercising any leadership and/or role of leadership within the church (pastor/elder/overseerer/teacher).
skova said:
Skova, how does the story of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5) fit into your idead that God is all love? Doesn’t it seem kind of harsh for God to kill them instantly like He did?
In addition, what about the view of Jesus Christ we see in Revelation? His robe dipped in blood from slaughtering His enemies, etc? Help me understand what you mean when you say ‘loving character’. What exactly do you mean by that?
Thanks to the men for their comments. As far as the women are concerned – they need to shut up. Their opinion means nothing as far as scripture is concerned. The Bible says that they should simply submit and ask their husbands what to believe. It’s in the scripture:
1 Corinthians Chapter 14 verses 33-35
33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
Praise God!!! It’s your choice, follow scripture or suffer eternal torment in a lake of fire and brimstone. Simple.
It looks to me as though blatant ignorance has infected the church far more than I used to think. One Women are as capable at preaching, teaching and prophesying as men. As a matter of fact only ignorance could take scripture so far out of context to start a stupid controversy as this. There is no such stipulation against women in the bible as it is originally written inspired by God himself. Those who study by means of paltry translation and religious ignorance brought on by tradition of men and not Godly desire for truth just find themselves hurting others through such ignorance. Pull it if you like but in this day and age of abundant bible resources you will find that kind of ungodly treatment of women is outright barbarism. Jesus calls all of us women, men children. He elevates us to Kings children and lifts us from such tripe as this religious heresy brought on by such ignorance. That all said, wake up and look at the context of what Paul wrote, One he did not say at anytime women couldn’t preach that would be a contradiction. Two the baptist, and a few other denominations have wrecked lives with their religious non-sense that is more denomination based than bible based. You send divorced people to hell for trying to continue a normal life as God intended, you fry a man for getting re-married and following God’s will. Your traditions sicken God and do not at any time send a message of God’s love to anyone. Heaven sheds tears every time you do this stuff. Your denomination needs a 95 thesis nailed to the door. Pull a magazine for its cover without so much as thinking that you have committed the sin of rejecting the Jesus these women represent. So what if they are women, at least they went when Jesus called them, which is more than I can say for the poor, blind pharisee of a pastor that would rather see someone hurting and dying (and call it God’s will) than attempt to biblically raise them out of the gutter that is called life in this sick world. In closing, while you fuss over a cover of a magazine, people you should be reaching, are going to hell without so much as a nod from your religious self. There will be a reckoning one day and, where are you when the gospel is to be preached into all the world for a witness as Jesus commanded? You are busy playing church and killing people for having a life that you cannot manipulate with out of context scripture. SHAME ON YOU.
Daniel
Oh and by the way Judah, Who are you to think that JHVH almighty would at all treat the people he loves with such hurt, you need to check your salvation buddy.
Daniel-
Who was it that started the controversy? Men who upheld the orthodoxy of men called to be the officers of the church, or, women who broke down discipline of the church and forced their way into ministry? It is amazing how the guilty cry innocent.
God doesn’t call particularly? He didn’t give some to be Pastors/Teachers? The Holy Spirit doesn’t distribute gifts as he will so that all have gifts that vary and each are to minister within them, an eye an eye, a mouth a mouth, and ear an ear? No diverstity, no order, no authority structure, just chaos. What a bizarre body you have manufactured, Doctor Frankenstein. You’re wrong before you even get to the issue that you’ve brought up. Or, didn’t you just read Nathan. The subject of the post was LifeWay, and not the cover of the magazine. True enough, the biblical mandate rules out women holding authority in the church, and the home, but the hypocrisy is in the incongruity that LifeWay exhibits elsewhere but will not do a thing to correct it. In this case, it was the PC thing to do so as not to upset the traditionalists (legalists) who dominate the SBC.
You can prove that, right? Personally, I could care less if this magazine is published. That is not the issue. This is a denominationally supported and cooperative effort and should represent its values. But as I said above, the magazine is a triffle compared with the rest of the garbage that LifeWay sells. But, I will still challenge you to prove that I have not bedded down the destitute and alcoholic, the diseased and depraved, that I have not gone to the crowds and the broken-hearted with the gospel of grace. I would challenge you to identifiy one person that I have killed.
The problem with liberals like you is that you know too much… and it has no context within Scripture.
Daniel,
If you think God will leave sin unpunished then you need to read Acts chapter 5. There you will learn that God does in fact punish sin. Ananias and Saphira were struck down to eternal damnation for telling a lie. Say what you want about God but on thing’s for sure – he doesn’t play around with sinners.
Back on the subject of Lifeway – Thomas is right. Lifeway has strayed from it’s mission. Lets pray that they don’t become drunk on the worldly wealth they’re receiving from selling ungodly material.
I think all this division is unneccessary, carnal, ungodly, divisive, unprofitable, and a waste of time. Let’s focus on matters that tend to godliness and more holiness, not on needless controversies.
Davide,
It would have been a waste of time, but then this magazine published. This is what caused a needless controversy.
Mark
And not only was it published, but the controversy was picked up by the Media news wire (or is that Mafia). Either way, we cannot escape scrutiny by the world anymore, and must give an answer and have a ready defense. Otherwise we will look to the world as if we were an oppressive cult. Our answers must be clear and well reasoned from Scripture and not just an is so said so. Then too, being in the lime-light as the SBC is, the world will look for every possible point of hypocrisy and when it comes to LifeWay, that is not hard to find.
Right. I wasn’t talking about Nathan’s post. I was talking about the discussions that follow.
at least **some** of the discussions:)
Right on guys. Of course, like I said before, I didn’t post this to discuss women pastors. In fact, I actually critiqued the arguments supporting the publishing of the magazine, but scrapped them because I didn’t want to distract from what I believe to be very important: LifeWay’s poor priorities. I think what they did is very sad, but NOT because I disagree with the theology behind it!
Anyway, regarding the discussion here: I’m up for any discussion about scripture, no matter what anyone’s opinion is. What is sad about this is when people start name-calling (Pharisees), telling women that the need to ’shut up’, start questioning people’s salvation, running to irrelevant arguments like God’s love, etc. If we could avoid those kind of emotional, poorly-thought-out, and just plain foolish statements, then I don’t object to a discussion on the scripture passages dealing with a woman’s role in the church.
And my brother JohnMark is right: there is no real controversy here for anyone who isn’t advocating a liberal approach to scripture. The texts on this issue are very clear. The controversy started when those texts are ignored and people actually glory in their shame!
Well, if God sends liars to hell then, from my experience, that means a large percentage of born-agains (baptists and pentecostals, in particular) will suffer that fate. Does it matter, though? They seem to think they can get away with it by saying “sorry” later on, so what’s the bother and worry?
agreed
Judah, Look I am not into strife it wrecks good things. Brother you have me all wrong. Yes God does punish sin, however women preaching is not a sin, nor is it a sin for a divorced person such as myself to be in the ministry, pastoring or any other thing that God himself called and appointed me to. You have issues, big ones, you think because your denomination says something is a sin that it is in the Bible. It is a sin to murder, it is a sin to slander, it is a sin to violate the covenant that God has with us by hating your brother and hating your enemy, it is also a sin to take God’s Word out of Context and quote it as truth, But to be a woman and be a preacher is not a sin. Ignorance is death my brother and it is hurting people by the billions in this world. Religious ignorance is just insane, especially when we as believers should know better and are held accountable to the Word.
One more thing, Pastors, well meaning, yet very very, ill taught, have demolished many a ministry that could have been effective in taking the Gospel into the world by this kind of treatment of women and divorced people. Telling them what religion says and not the Bible to hold up a denominations standards without any solid evidence of God’s Word behind their ungodly actions toward the divorced and women alike. Ministries that could have been, have been cast aside for cold religion that is killing congregations worldwide with loveless and powerless tradition.
Its time for a real wake up call people, we are losing to the system called the world while we fight each other and the devil is laughing at this foolishness because he knows that you pharisees let him into your churches to do his hurt with your lifeless religion.
Tell us Daniel, what’s the Gospel?
Are you a real little boy? Or is Daniel a mask hiding your identity?
Come on link your URL and profile. Let us in on you secret.
Oh, Brian, you are so spiritually blind! Being born again means a free ticket out of Hell, and never having to say “sorry”. Isn’t God wonderful?
Thomas, religion has killed many a person from the inside. You know brother if you had any common sense you would have understood my statement to be as much metaphor as literal. Religion in America has done as much to hurt the hurting as religion overseas has done to literally kill innocent people just for breathing. You have never read Ephesians chapter 4 which states ” And He gave some, Apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists and teachers” Women, Men and even Children have been in those roles (Timothy and John Mark were teens, too young by your standards) . God is not divisive, nor is He one to discriminate against a person on gender, after all he created us all and can ordain who He decides and there is nothing a denomination can do about that.
By the way to prevent further issues with thick theological minds, I DO NOT condone the ordination of homosexuals, because homosexuality is a sin and is not permissible in God’s sight.
The Gospel, Well one the word Gospel itself is Greek for Good News. You know the news that Jesus came and destroyed the works of the devil to set us free from sin, sickness and poverty on all levels. That Gospel is what we are to be preaching into all the world for a witness. By the way you don’t need to know who I am, just that I have a very high level of influence on this country every day.
My friend, that’s a false gospel.
With all due respect to the moderator of this blog, everything I’ve said is based on scripture. I could have used “politically correct” language but the fact remains that the Bible is very clear about what a woman’s place is in the church. I chose strong language because the holy Word of our Lord uses strong language.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
The saying goes “if you don’t stand for something you will fall for anything”. Now is the time for Christians to stand up and defend our faith. Truth is a critical piece of the holy armor that we need in order to successfully to wage spiritual warfare.
Ephesians 6:14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist
By the way Daniel:
Why is homosexuality on your mind? Nothing has been said about homosexuality in this discussion and yet you feel a need to bring it up out of the blue. I don’t want to go off topic but I’m concerned because Ted Haggard used to bring up homosexuality up out of the blue too.
What is false about bringing the poor out of poverty. I personally hate being in debt and the bible tells me that debt is bondage to another person. I am no mans slave. Sickness is also latent death, death as the bible shows us, is our enemy. Jesus redeemed us from the curse and delivered us into His Kingdom. He Loves us enough to heal us and care for all our needs when we come to Him. What is false about that? Have you never read in Isaiah his description of Jesus ministry, Jesus did. It was to give good news to the poor, heal the sick, bring sight to the blind. You people need serious help in your theology. You slight women, divorced people, Judah you attacked women for preaching telling them they would go to hell. Then made an assumption about my manhood that was absolutely ludicrous. I tell you this, get your head out of the red book hymnal and get into the Bible, read it as it is meant to be read and knock off this pathetic childish religious crap. I am 100% male and have a woman that keeps me coming home every night. I used to be a member of the Episcopal church and had to make that disclaimer to show where I stand on that issue that is plaguing that denomination (i.e. homosexuals being ordained). I hate it for mainline denominations they are falling apart. The SBC in all its glory had better check it’s theology, it might just find itself in the same mess soon. Meanwhile you keep fighting the good fight of Christian ism because that is what you are doing and doing a good job of slicing and dicing the Word of God to fit your religious mindset.
Daniel, you still haven’t explained the Gospel:
This is part of it:
Here is another:
And another:
Interesting isn’t Daniel that you say God is not divisive and he says that he is, and not only that but he does’t intercede for those who he discriminates against. Darn you’re wrong, how bout that? Or you’re just a self-contradiction becaus you said God does discriminate, but Ephesians 4, does say some and not all. You list the gifts and are quite correct, not all are all those things, so it is clear that God does discriminate. As to just who, the order of creation in Timothy is important, the head of household is important, the hierarchical structures of church government is important. If you destroy the type, you destroy the thing it signifies, namely Christ our head. Though, as I have already demonstrated you destroy the Scripture as revelation anyway.
You just pulled this out of the blue. There is no Biblical evidence at all that they were teens. Pure bunk, dude. Mark is likely to have been in the original company of Christ followers, placing his birth before 30 A.D. He travelel with Paul around 45 AD and Paul’s first imprisonment was around 60 A.D. which would make Mark at least thirty when they had their dispute. The Gospel itself was likely written between 60-80 A.D. Though he may have converted young there is no reason to accept that he was a teen minisiter and beside that the ministry is inaugurated with Timothy/Titus and the ordination of Elders and Deacons are given then and not before. The particular callings of Acts cannot be equated to the officers of the Church post Timothy/Titus. Timothy was most likely not a teen either. Having joined Paul for his second missionary journey around 48. The book of Timothy is dated around 67 which would make Timothy in his twenties, minimum. Though he was young there is no internal evidence that he was not older than a teen, and though the indication is that he was youthful (a relative term) he was certainly no youth. The familiar terms are common speech of address between a father figure and one he considers his child. It is no indication that Timothy was a child. I call my wife kid and she is forty five. Paul is setting up a church according to the mystery given him that requires its ministers (men only, no women) to manage their wives and children well, not to be novices at family life- not to be youths, et cetera. By the writting of Timothy he had been with Paul quite some time. You’ll have to dig for fools gold to prove that he was a teen.
Now to the Gospel: Jesus didn’t heal everyone, nor did he save everyone, nor feed everyone. He didn’t preach the Gospel to everyone. The fact that he didn’t is evidence that he did not intend to, nor does he intend for is disciples to. In fact, he placed strict restriction upon who could come to him and who would be fed or healed. He required submission under the commandments and autority of his body. He was no social gospeler. In this world he said we will have tribulation, proverty, be killed, imprisoned… all the things you say he came to destroy, but all the things Paul said that if we did not endure for His sake we would not be raised up with Him. Quite in contradiction to you, Paul teaches that it is life to suffer as he did. Though we remember the poor we remember our Savior’s instructions to Judas, “The poor you have with you always, you can do with them as you will,” when Judas offered the same complaint that you are offering.
I don’t know Daniel, if you have a lot of influence in this country, it scares me just what this country is made of.
The problem Daniel is you have no clue what you’re talking about.
You can uncloak now.
What I see here are posts that indicate many so insecure with their beliefs that the mere thought of looking at another’s viewpoint sends them in a tail spin. Are the beliefs so fragile that other thoughts on scripture can shatter what one believes?
Not sure when I’ve ever seen such fear of of being open to viewing contradictory scriptures and discussing.
Food for thought:
God is a constant presense. His presense did not stop when the last word of the Bible was written. He is still speaking to people. And we all know that He speaks to some unlikely people. (unlikely only in our own minds, not His. Those that someone deems to be unworthy)
To assume that the words of God are not ongoing past the writing of the Bible, is to be taking away His power and giving it only to ourselves. Not being open to other’s experiences with God diminishes His power. And takes it upon humans to decide what He has shown to others and to whom He speaks. And it takes away His ongoing words.
Or, do some think that He stopped speaking when the Bible was completed? The Bible is the window to God. It is not God. It is His words written by those that experienced Him. People are still experiencing Him and hearing His words.
Yes, Angela, I’m blind. I stumbled onto this blog due to the subject matter of the periodical (magazine article being controversial to some people.) As I’ve read enough fussing & fighting, I’ll make my way. Good day to you, Angela.
So, skova, are you saying that there are new Scriptures? Could you please point to them so that they can be compared in a Berean way to see if these things are of God. And, what of the Berean ethic and the Faith once for all delivered to the saints? Please tell us, who are these that are receiving new revelation? What do you mean “written by those that experienced him?” Experienced what?
Seems to me you’ve got a lot of splainin to do Lucy…
Thomas,
I am not pointing out any more scriptures, nor am I saying any more have been written. I am saying that God still lives and speaks. Do you agree? or do you think He is silent now?
I am all for tolerance and acceptance of different theological views in the Protestant church. Having grown up in a predominately black baptist church, we had ministers who were women that taught and preached in churches. While I have learned more about the Christian faith and my knowledge of God from strong black women, I completely disagree that women are called to be a pastors. I believe that there are some many women leaders in the black church is because of the lack of leadership in the black community. Black men, since the civil rights movement, have generally failed to lead by providing biblical leadership in their communities and churches. Women have been pushed into the role of leading churches because men won’t stand up and lead.
It has been accepted that women can be pastors due to the poor theological training of ministers and pastors in their church. Let’s face it, let’s call a spade, exactly what it is a spade. It’s bad theology.
[...] Gospel Today magazine pulled from Christian bookstores’ shelves Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 1 Timothy 2:12-14 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 1 Timothy 3:1-3 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. Titus 1:5-6 [...]
Skova – God is indeed alive and I do believe that he gives divine revelation to his anointed servants. Those anointed by God receive divine revelation through the filter of his Holy word the Bible. Pagans thrive today and by their own definition, they receive their ‘inspiration’ from some mysterious source like ‘nature’. When I hear someone speak about “experiencing God and hearing his words” I always look at the context. As Christians we need to be careful of those who claim to “hear” God’s words outside of the bounds of scripture .
1st Timothy
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
He is and he is not silent, but our rule of faith is Scripture, and not opinion.
You said:
What words of God? Whose experience? Our experiences or our opinions are not what matters, but revelation and that is given by the Word of God. So clarify, what do you mean by “words of God”? And that goes to the LifeWay situation. Does it represent mere opinions of men, commercially sold, or is it a bookstore that handles the truth in righteouness?
What is at issue here in this thread is what has LifeWay done? Another blog asked “What good was putting the magazine behind the counter like a piece of pornography?” The neutrality of a magazine is to be quetioned. Why is the feature story what it is? Is it rightly examined? Is it textual examination of the subject? If it is an affront to accepted Baptist theology and the BFM, is message and mission of the SBC counter effected by continued sales in that manner. That is, was there a disclaimer on it that it was not kosher SBC in the first place? See, the question is not what does Barnes and Noble think of this issue, nor anyone else? The question is what is an SBC affiliate doing offering propaganda that undermines its own position. And why would they continue to sell it if they thought it not proper to display? Then there is the question of what the mission of LifeWay entails. Is it just commercial? If it is then there is no problem with the magazine. But, if it is representative of SBC’s official position by default, then the control on counter policy is an oversight that is needed. And it goes beyond that. The stores and the online outlets need to carefully understand the implicit authority that a “Christian” bookstore label represents let alone the SBC label. If in this case LifeWay has acted as the gatekeeper of SBC orthodoxy, why not in all cases? It would be better if they hung a sign stating that not all materials represent SBC distinctives then to in one case expose the fact that they are not responible except when politically correct.
Nathan’s point:
Honesty being a Chrisitian virtue has been announced by their actions as not.
Why does this have anything to do with Freedom of Speech? She was able to write, publish, and distribute the magazine. That’s where Freedom of Speech (or press) ends. The fact that her interpretation of the scripture is a minority interpritation will certainly turn some retailers off to selling her materials if they outwardly contradict their beliefs. The retailer also has rights and has publically made a ruling of doctrine that they will not condone nor promote females as pastors. What’s wrong with them upholding this ruling in their own private chain? She has several other outlets that will sell her materials. This is one retailer. It evidently comes down to money because fact is that Lifeway is the largest Christian Book Retail chain and she knows she will lose alot of money. If this was a smaller chain she probably wouldn’t have blinked. Kind of sad really. She knew before she published the magazine where Lifeway stands on that issue and she should have known that they have the right to remove it from their shelves.
Judah,
Who spoke of receiving words thru nature? Not I.
I said that God is alive and continues to speak. To say that He does not, is to say He has no more power. And for man to decide who He has spoken to or who is worthy to be spoken to, also takes away His power.
There were many awe inspiring words and happenings during Biblical times. Some, hard to understand using human eyes and ears. But that is the beauty and wonderment of it. That some followed even when they did not understand.
And Thomas,
our experiences with God do matter. So I totally disagree with you.
My statement was simple and should have been easily understood. That God still speaks. That He did not stop speaking when the writing of the Bible was complete. You continue to try to make it complicated. For whatever reason, I do not know. Either a person believes He still speaks or they do not. And either a person believes that we can all have an experience with God or they do not. That is not to say that everyone has or even wants to. I did not say that everyone does.
yes Dale,
I agree. Lifeway has a right to sell or not sell whatever they want. And in this electronic age, everyone knows almost instantly what is going on.
That is without question. It is what he speaks and through what medium. That we all receive direct revelation is without question. But what revelation is the issue. As Paul said:
And:
Or:
And eventhough our experience is individual it is governed by the corporate experience: James 1
And take note that the experiences of Christians are explained by wisdom given to all and that all experience the same things and that Jame is quite clear that the experiences are not to be divided against the word. The bridling of the tongue is that which Peter spoke of and Paul too.
Far from being what is Christ to me, it is who is Christ to his followers, collectively. For Christ is not divided, but is one body.
So you can answer, what words of wisdom has he given you that is not also for me? For all that the Spirit does is not given for the individual to prosper alone, but for all. So the real value of any of you experiences or words from God is in what they do for others, as James would say. If you think yourself rich in spiritual things because God has prospered you, you have nothing that belongs to you, alone, as Paul would say. Experience then does not matter except that it is common to all, and words do not matter unless, also they are common to all.
So I’ll ask again, what is it that God has given in either word or deed, that is not for all, and if for all, what difference from Scripture? So, what Scripture has to say is our final authority. It does not matter, then, what your experience is, or what words you have from the Spirit. If it is not captured in the Scripture then it is extra-biblical and if it is and some new and unexplained word or experience you do not own it, but must according the the revelation that we have in Scripture speak it for all to prosper. And having done so that new revelation will have the weight of Scripture.
Thomas,
I have already shared with you what was shared with me. I will share it with anyone and have. And that is, that God still speaks. That He did not stop. And that the Bible is not His final words. That we must be open to others and hear their experiences with God.
Many try to share (as you pointed out should be done), but are ignored or told they are wrong. Yet they still try to share it. Even knowing they will be immediately dismissed by many. I don’t profess to know who has heard words from God. (i am guessing you were asking for a list from me when you asked who) But I can truthfully say I do not admonish them and not hear them out. Even if what they say is not what I am accustomed to, I am not uncomfortable hearing it. And I do not try to shout them down to make a point. It would be such a pity for me if their words to me were words from God and I ignored or brushed them aside without listening and comtemplated that it is possible these are new and more teachings.
One thing that I have have noticed. That the most devout people within their own religions, that I know and have known, are those that have studied all religions with an open mind. Not with the thought that they must agree, but with the thought they can learn something. They have come to be comfortable with realizing that religions are man made and not something dictated in in the Bible. Therefore, they do not feel threatened by others.
New and more teachings from what source? Scripture? Or new revelation?
Well here’s the problem. The Scripture demands that they must agree. Yes religions as opposed to pure religion, is man made. But the Scripture dictates what that pure religion is. The Scripture threatens all pretenders:
If what you are saying is that someone might speak to you the Word of God and open up the understanding of it for you and the Spirit gives you illumination, then, that is the benefit of the kindness of our Lord. But, if what you are saying is that someone has spiritual truth not founded in the pages of Scripture, then what you are proposing is an authority of equal stature, and by that fiat is Scripture.
am sorry Thomas,
But this is my last discussion with you about this. You have indicated that you believe there is only one religion , you called it pure religion. I assume you mean it is yours.
Ephesians 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
We are of one spirit. You may not wish to accept that. And that is quite okay. You can accept or decline any part of the Bible. This is your right under God. But there is no division in Jesus’ words. He did not divide us into small groups to rail out to each other. No man nor group of men can give salvation or take it away. No man has the power to decide who does and doesn’t receive it. No man makes the rules for that. It’s all so very simple. His words were made simple for all to understand. Perhaps I am very wrong, but I do not remember reading that Heaven is open to one religion only. It’s okay with me if you do think that. I don’t try to change your mind or belief. Or to tell you that you are wrong in it.
So, have a wonderful and blessed life
No, I mean it is Christ’s.
But you just did and it is not alright with you what I believe or you would never have contradicted a thing I’ve said. If truly you believed that what you believe is the truth wouldn’t you love me enough not to allow me to be wrong. Or are you that calloused?
Ephesians was written to believers for believers. Perhaps you believe that Jesus died for everyone. But that is a mistake, isn’t it?
You’re confused if you believe that say buddhists’ who are atheists by definition, or atheists who by definition have a religious belief, will be in heaven. The only religion that Scripture opens heaven for are those who do righteousness and only one name which must be named, by which man will be saved. And being that there was only one who does righteousness, Jesus Christ the Righteous, and being that there is no ther in whom we must believe and him alone and his Word, and by his name alone, Scripture alone declares that there is only one true religion and that is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the Glory of God alone.
Scripture is exclusive and about a God who has chosen for himself a people out of the world to the excusion of all others and sent his Son that only those believing in him may have eternal life. He has done all this even preparing the wicked for the day of destruction: Isaiah 45.
Believe it or not, I am not a careless nor neglectful of your eternal destiny as to leave you to the ignorance of your understanding. God sent Jesus with a sword, to divide, to set one against the other. Either accept it or reject it, if you reject it I have no other recourse except to tell you what Scripture says, your sin remains and so does your condemnation. But, if you hear what I am saying, then doday is the day, repent and believe and you will be saved. Not by me, not by the words here in, but by the grace of God through the gift of faith by the Holy Spirit without which no one will believe. But if you think Jesus just to be another enlightened teacher, like Budda or Mohammed, and not the only God of all and Saviour who gave himself for your sin you will surely die in it.
And by the way, there was a man who was given power to decide. But I am not the man.
You know, this is absolutely pathetic, I watch people who should be normal, sane, and Christian, talking as though they have no clue about what the Word says. I see this why? I see this because of sick sad religious tradition that has rendered you numb to any thought of getting an ounce of truth from the Bible that you have so mercilessly sliced and diced to suit opinions and to avoid the Absolute that is the Word of God Himself. Opinions are flexible and change with the winds of circumstance. God and His Word are absolute. We are not to attempt to change the Word to suit us, No we are to change us to fit the Word. The problem starts with men in their finite minds trying to make an Absolute change to fit their broken mindset. The Absolute must be first and final authority. When you try to support religious tradition and a broken mindset with out of context scripture it only breaks your foundation more. OUT OF CONTEXT Scripture does not justify ignorance or religious tradition that have so corrupted so many in their thinking.
The Gospel by the way is, The Good News to us all that we do not have to live like cursed animals in a cursed world but that we can live as redeemed sons and daughters of God. Heirs of God and Joint Heirs with Christ. It is that simple.
[...] my last post, an assertion was made by someone in the comment section that 1 Tim 2:12, “I do not permit a [...]
So Daniel, do people die? Get sick, hunger, thirst. Are there earthquakes, typhoons, floods and fires, wars and pestilences?
Just how do you mean we do not have to live like the cursed? And how does:
figure into their being no effects of the curse or:
Reconcile them for us please, elucidate, give us wisdom, tell us what is the context?
Gentlemen,
I’d appreciate it if you’d wrap up the discussion if you don’t mind. The conversation has strayed far from the original topic at hand, I’ve just posted another article in hopes of diverting the attention back to the important stuff, and the number of comments here is getting beyond my ability to monitor.
Get your last word in and/or take it offline. Of course, your other option is to take it back up in the comment section of my newest post, provided you guys stay somewhat on topic (I would consider a discussion of biblical interpretation to be on-topic there).
Thanks
I really have no time for this kind of ignorance. You cannot see that Jesus went to great lengths to make you and I righteous. He did all that so that the sick could be healed, those in debt could be freed from that debt, those who have been victim could become victorious.
The thing is that you are more willing to accept the Babylonian lifestyle that this gentile religious world you live in has handed you. Jesus gave His all for Us to be more than just beggars and live as mere men on this earth. Yes there is calamity and sin in this world but we as believers have been given the Word of God to supersede the sin and death. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus freed us from the Law of Sin and Death. The scripture you are quoting is not complete, it is from the perception of a man who was seeing calamity and much sin around him. It is not the whole picture, the righteous are very much here and now. the righteous are righteous because Jesus made them that way.
We do not have to live according to the dictates of the curse, Jesus redeemed us from the curse. It is a sad thing that Christians live like those who have no covenant with God. Living every day as though Jesus never died for them.
Wow- What a pleasure to finally meet Daniel, the anonymous first essentially righteous, immortal, man.
The final plea for your repentance Daniel:
Liberty. If you could put the will of God into one word, that would be the word. God wants people to be free. Free from sin, sickness, poverty, oppression and every other curse.
That freedom is what Jesus came to provide. He said, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor…to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised” (Luke 4:18). That’s what He trained His disciples to do. And if you’re a born-again believer, that’s what He wants you to do too!
Some people say, “Well, I don’t know about that. That may not be God’s will for today.”
But listen, the Bible says God never changes. He hasn’t changed His will for the earth. He doesn’t do one thing awhile and then go do another thing awhile. Jesus’ life was a perfect picture of God’s will 2,000 years ago– and it still is! That’s why He left instructions for us to go and do the works that He did. That’s why He sent the Holy Spirit to empower us to do them.
Jesus still wants to do the will of the Father here on earth–but He does it through us. He has to work with us until we’re willing to lay down our traditions and let Him do His thing. That’s what the early Church did. They started out with a bang because they did as Jesus taught them. Everywhere they went people became free.
Let’s pray for the Church of today to deliver the liberty of God to the world. Let’s quit questioning the will of God and start carrying it out instead. He said the works that He did we would do also and even greater works (John 14:12). It’s time for us to take up where Jesus left off and set the captives free!
So now you claim you’re greater than God that you can stop his will here on earth? What arrogance!
Repent Daniel, Christ’s work is already finished. And it is you who question the will of God in thinking that you, blade of grass can stay the will of God. When you start doing “greater” works than Christ, i.e. being God, then we’ll listen.
You who stir up strife, this is my last post. You are equal to conversing with a drunken man. You hear nothing but what your drunken ears filter to your drunken mind. No amount of correction can move a fool from his continuous rambling. I am done with you.
The Anonymous Daniel
A fools continuous rambling:
It’s not like you stopped in here not to be contentious, is it? And you have the audacity to say such after this:
Posh!
It is time we respected Nathan’s request, sorry Nathan!
If you have not already read this book, please take the time to read it. I hope it helps open your mind and heart as it did mine.