This is where we see some crossover in keeping the cerimonial and moral law

I thought about this after I wrote and thought it might be misunderstood. What I meant simply had to do with symbolic worship with which the cermonial law dealt. When Jesus says do this in rememberance of me, it is of course not sacrificial (though beneficial), but it is rich in symbolism. As you understood I was connecting it to certain “sacraments” which are types of the relationship(s) we have and will have with the Lord. One day we will celebrate the Marriage Supper in a way that has not yet been realized.

To flaunt as it were our liberty, I think Paul makes clear, is wrong.

Clearly so. I agree. Remember, the Sabbath is given for our good (“made for man”), i.e., for our spiritual good. Thus, I am somewhat hesitant to draw lines exactly how it can be broken…though I think we normally recognize Sabbath breaking when we see it (especially within our own consciences).

TT said:

“He also makes a statement about the Sabbath in which we are not to judge how one might keep it. What he does not say is that we are free not to keep it.”

Interesting. I agree of course that the Sabbath is never abolished, but I’ve normally interpreted the ‘do not judge…new moon or sabbath’ as referring to the Mosaic law new moons, sabbath months/years, and the rest of the ceremonies of the OT law. In other words, I do not believe Paul has the 4th commandment in mind there at all. But, I do see your point, and would mostly agree with you. Like I said above, it’s kind of like modesty: we cannot make hard lines in what is appropriate and what isn’t, but we sure know inappropriate when we see it.

TT said:

“This is where we see some crossover in keeping the cerimonial and moral law.”

Hmm, I think I disagree here. I don’t see the Sabbath as ceremonial at all; God didn’t give ceremonies in the garden. However, I DO see it as typological, if you mean it in that sense, just as marriage is typological of a greater reality.

TT said:

“In otherwords, the keeping of this simple commandment preaches the Gospel. What an easy way to proclaim it and not deny it.”

Excellent point. I don’t often think of it that way, but you’re right. And might I add: not keeping it bitterly, being judgmental, with an attitude of legalism and ‘I’m better than everybody else’. Rather, keeping it with a solemn attitude of ‘today is the Lord’s Day; let us set aside our wants and desires so as to fill ourselves with the holy worship and love of God.” There is a reverance, a sincerity, and a honest love for God and His law above our own desires when we observe the Sabbath.

TT said:

“They tend to overlap or mingle. I also think that for most of us, we find ourselves doing some of this at times.”

Definitely so. I noticed the same thing. But he did seem to nail just about everybody somewhere or another…

Excellent thoughts my brother.

I liked your view that Sabbath breaking is actually actively avoiding or breaking it. To flaunt as it were our liberty, I think Paul makes clear, is wrong.

He also makes a statement about the Sabbath in which we are not to judge how one might keep it. What he does not say is that we are free not to keep it. The manner is the issue that should not divide, but to the keeping of it I don’t see anywhere where Paul excuses Sabbath keeping.

There is another issue here that is much like the covenant of marriage. The Sabbath, though a shadow, is like marriage, is like baptism or the Lord’s Supper, which hold their value in keeping by expressing critical biblical truth. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, he is our rest. The keeping of the Sabbath like the Supper shows forth that fact until the day he comes again when we will enter once for all behind the veil and enjoy a Sabbath forever. This is where we see some crossover in keeping the cerimonial and moral law. Not that either gains favor or works as a sacrifice which can propitiate and take away from the glory of the Blood of Christ, but that it shows the world about the peace of God offered. In otherwords, the keeping of this simple commandment preaches the Gospel. What an easy way to proclaim it and not deny it.

I was recently in a discussion with a poster at Pyro over the Law. He would actually fit into several of Packer’s categories. Primarily his position is a position I called anomian from 1 John. It is roughly J.I.’s last three categories. They tend to overlap or mingle. I also think that for most of us, we find ourselves doing some of this at times.

I’m sorry that I missed reading this sooner. Darn!

You said:

is it not true that a believer’s sins make no difference in terms of their salvation? Their sins cannot take them to Hell if they are among the elect, no matter what those sins may be. That being said, the believer must still repudiate them.

Well, yes, in a sense. For true believers their sin is covered in Christ, and they rest in His imputed righteousness by faith. But scripture never indicates that this reality leads to any sort of disobedience, but rather the opposite is true for those who are truly in the faith.

James said:

In terms of the Sabbath, do you believe that it is sinful for all people to work on the Sabbath?

No, certainly there are allowances for working on the Sabbath. And furthermore, I tend to see this as more of a conscience issue. In other words, I don’t see working on the Sabbath as a direct violation of this commandment (in many cases). The commandment, I believe, teaches us the necessity of setting aside a regular time-slot for worship, which would of course involve a refrain from spending our time doing other things like work. Now there is a sense in which the Sabbath can be broken by going to work, just as it can be broken by laying on the couch and watching the NFL, but I believe that scripture leaves it largely to personal conscience for us to determine exactly where that line is.

It’s not that their sins should be encouraged or not repented of, but is it not true that a believer’s sins make no difference in terms of their salvation? Their sins cannot take them to Hell if they are among the elect, no matter what those sins may be. That being said, the believer must still repudiate them.

In terms of the Sabbath, do you believe that it is sinful for all people to work on the Sabbath? I know the Old Testament was strict in this regard, sentencing to death a man who was simply gathering wood (Numbers 13:32-36). However, most churches recognize the need for some public service professionals to continue to work throughout the week: the populace must be protected from criminals who do not refrain from crime simply because it is the Lord’s Day, and we cannot ignore the needs of the sick and injured.