This sounds like a good book; I’ll look into getting it.

bob

Any thinking person realizes this cannot be reconciled with a God who “is Love” unless that person has no appreciation for the word at all. Someone with even an iota of a conscience would not set their dog on fire, and they are but simple animals, not a person created in the image and likeness of God.

That being said, it is reasonable to suggest that God allows men the freedom to live outside of His realm where all is utter darkness and horror. If God is indeed “good”, anything that is not of Him can only be horrible. His “punishment” is His absence (and I think Romans 1 supports this notion). That is, if God is love, light, goodness, generosity and mercy, Hell can only be hatred, darkness, wickedness, selfishness and ruthlessness.

These seem to be very important distinctions, since too many commit a certain degree of character assassination when it comes to God.

Here’s mine “God is actually a tree” and if we don’t bow down, then he will plant us in the ground as punishment”..that sounds reasonable to me..
Now tell me why your ideas hold more water than mine…

As you can see…unless you go to the word and use that as the basis for what you “believe” about how things are…then any old idea is correct.

bob

His “punishment” is His absence (and I think Romans 1 supports this notion). That is, if God is love, light, goodness, generosity and mercy, Hell can only be hatred, darkness, wickedness, selfishness and ruthlessness.

These seem to be very important distinctions, since too many commit a certain degree of character assassination when it comes to God.

Well then I guess Jesus assassinated God:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell…For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

“Vengence is mine says the Lord, I will repay” does not sound as if hell is an act of self-immolation. Then there are these sorts of passages: “Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.”

Nah! It sounds as if the Wrath is a little different than the wrath of Romans 1 which is wholly earth bound and only a foretaste of the Wrath which is to come. In any case, it is not as if punishment were out of God’s control as if it existed on its own. To the contrary, Scripture tells us that all things are upheld by the power of his might, and where his power is there also is he, omnipresent and omniscient, knowing exactly how to discharge his duty as the King who does not weild the sword in vain. It is good to exact vengence in righteousness, love to hate that which is evil. And a you failed to mention, JamesK, our God is a consuming fire. “Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”

James–
Just about every time you comment here we come to the issue of scriptural authority. I will ask again, as I have many times before, and as others on this thread have as well: where is the authority backing your opinions? Where can we find these truths in scripture, or is there something that supersedes scripture in authority? Where in Romans one do you see your view? How can you, my friend, accuse of of slandering God when you continually use your own intellect (so it seems to some of us) to define who God is and what He is like? Are we really in a position to define what ‘love’ truly is?

I have come to welcome your comments here as one who is always cordial with me, but I must warn you with all sincerity that you seem to have created a god in your own likeness rather than taking close and studied looks at scripture and see how it portrays Him.

As I read the passage, God’s wrath is revealed as “giving up” the wicked to do as they will. This isn’t a passive sort of merely tolerating the existence of something but rather allowing the full weight of evil to be felt by the one committing it. The penalty of sin is death, not because God is the author of death (on which Scripture is clear) but because death is the natural result of sin. Also: Christ on the cross did not ask why God was inflicting punishment upon Him but why he had been “forsaken”, yes? These sentiments are echoed throughout Scripture, and they seem to overshadow some of the hyperbole and poetry of Revelation and the Psalms.

By the way, I’ll admit that I have an “idea” of God, but I do, in fact, use Scripture to form those ideas. The problem is that my ideas agree with not just one tradition within the Christian faith. If you’re asking me to agree with everything John Calvin stated about Christ, for example, you may as well suggest I tow the Catholic theological line, or the Arminian. These are all traditions (small “t”). My ideas arise not because I disagree with Scripture but because I see something in Scripture that others might not (although others will agree).

See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand

No, JamewK, we are asking why you do not agree with Scripture.

As I read the passage, God’s wrath is revealed as “giving up” the wicked to do as they will.

What is the subject here? How Hell is? No.

The penalty of sin is death, not because God is the author of death (on which Scripture is clear) but because death is the natural result of sin.

God is not the author of Death?

Deu 32:39 “’See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:6-8 The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. The LORD makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts. He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and on them he has set the world.

Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

There are just too many verses to list here…!

Also: Christ on the cross did not ask why God was inflicting punishment upon Him but why he had been “forsaken”,

Context context context…

Nothing you sited had anything to do with the subject at hand…what is the eternal punishment?
But we do have scripture that people have listed that directly speak to this issue..

Again….if nobody has held your position in 2000 years…you might want to rethink it…

In His great love,

David