Reformed revival not as good as it seems
Apr 8th, 2008 by Nathan White
This week I read a very insightful article by Tim Challies/Scott Lamb regarding the resurgence in Reformed Theology over the last few years. If you hold to Reformed Theology and are excited at what seems to be a great revival of God’s people back to the ‘Old Paths’ of biblical Christianity, I’d encourage you to check out this piece, found here.
Basically, in summation, the argument is that even though Reformed Theology has taken off, and even Southern Seminary, THE Southern Baptist seminar, has become a bastion for Reformed thought, the Reformed influence is still minuscule compared to other movements within Christianity.
Personally, however, even though Reformed Theology is not a mainstream movement within Christianity, I am beginning to wonder how much influence some of our advocates are beginning to have.
For example, Al Mohler has been on Larry King Live many times, and continues to be a focal point in the media. I’ve heard several people, including Roman Catholics and extreme seeker-sensitive Arminians reference John Piper before, particularly his books ‘Don’t waste your life’ and ‘Let the Nations be Glad’. The other day I heard Johnny Hunt quote both John Piper and John MacArthur within a span of a few minutes, and the quotes and the point he was nailing home were excellent! Johnny’s even endorsed Mark Dever’s latest book on evangelism –and we all know that Hunt is fairly hostile to Reformed doctrine in both faith and practice.
I just wonder: even though numbers are tiny compared to other more mainstream movements, and even smaller are those who actually embrace Reformed doctrine in faith and practice, I do believe the Reformed influence is bringing a sort of ’sanctified’ influence upon many conservative, American Christians/ministers.
Wouldn’t we agree that numbers are not always indicative of reality? Praise God our hopes don’t hang on statistics, numbers, and observations to be seen with the naked human eye.
(And by the way, in case anyone was wondering: I see the major conferences, the popularity contests, the reformed celebrities, the massive marketing campaigns, the business models, and the blogs that have turned into money-making endeavors as one of the WORST things that has happened to the Reformed movement. It will certainly not be around for long if it continues down this path…)
Nathan,
Let me comment on Calvinism in SBC life. Mohler and Dever have become celebrities in Calvinism in SBC life. I don’t think you would argue that . They both will not press certain men in the SBC like Hunt, Vines, Graham, and other anticalvinist men because it will cost them something like it did myself and others.
We have men in the SBC that are calvinist that will call a man down if they need to but they don’t draw crowds nor do they want to. Dr. Akin who is a four pointer has been louder to the men I have mentioned above. What a man is willing to die for tells you alot. It amazes me that the anticalvinist are more vocal than the two men who are drawing the calvinist crowd. This ought to tell us something ! I have been screaming this for four years and you have heard me say this over and over however, Mohler and Dever still draw the biggest crowds. These men are strong vocally at Sprouls and MacAruthur but you never see them publically as strong as Vines, Hunt, and other anticalvinist in the SBC circles because they know it will cost them something like it did me but it was the best thing that happened to me ministerially . You are hitting some points that need to be discussed like the gospel post and this one. Thank you !
Scott, Please be careful. You might be disappointed that these two men aren’t more vocal with regards to the anti-calvinist camp, but to say that it’s because of what “it will cost them” is presuming a lot. I don’t know about Mohler, but in the case of Dever I think this is just consistant with the kind of humility I have seen in his ministry.
Let me give you an example. A few years ago I was at the Ligonier Conference and Mark Dever was one of the speakers. That year happened to coincide with Calvary (?) going through the “40 Days of Purpose”. Banners were everywhere. A few comments were made from the pulpit about the entire Purpose Driven Life craze when one visitor asked if any of them had actually read the book. Much to everyone’s surprise, Mark Dever was the only one who had read it. Instead of slamming the book like everyone expected, Mark took a very gracious approach and praised what was good and honorable in it. He then went on to clearly articulate the major concerns he had.
I remember feeling as though I was just given a lesson in true humilty and godliness. In that environment I think he could have lit the place up with derogatory remarks about that book and Warren’s ministry. He would have been preaching to the choir and it wouldn’t have cost him a thing. He chose to do otherwise.
If Mark Dever does gain the popularity of Mohler, I would say amen! Wouldn’t it be wonderful to see Nine Marks of a Healthy Church and The Deliberate Church read by as many pastors as PDL? That would take a genuine move of God.
Nathan, Piper’s popularity is truly amazing. He himself cannot understand why he is invited to some of the events he’s been a part of. At some of the youth/college events, youth leaders have shouted at him, collected their group and walked out. He doesn’t back off of the tough theology a bit, but the organizers keep inviting him back.
It may be true that other movements are gaining steam much faster than the Reformed Resurgence. However, they will prove to be withering grass and fading flowers, while “the Word of God stands forever.”
Scott,
To a certain extent, I definitely agree with you. But I also agree with Bill mentioned as well. To find a place in-between: I believe there is a time and a place to be vocal, just as there is a time and a place to be gracious.
Now, that being put aside, I am somewhat bothered by seemingly double-talk at times. If you’ve ever heard Mohler at the Shepherds’ Conference or the Together for the Gospel, he is absolutely outstanding. But place him in other situations, say at some preferably-not-mentioned SBC mega-churches, and he is average. In fact, he is worse than average; he toes the partly line like a true politician. That certainly bothers me, and I’ve noticed it on more than one occasion with some of the men you mention above. I do often wonder whether fame and popularity have something to do with this….
Nevertheless, touching on another concern: so many young men are flocking to seminary now days, and many are doing so with aspirations of becoming a celebrity like these guys. Who wouldn’t want to be as popular as Mohler or Dever?? Now this isn’t their fault, but sometimes, by their double-speak, they tend to fuel this kind of mindset that being popular and refusing to dissent is the ultimate goal.
Finally, I do agree with what Bill said above, and I do think it is a great thing that the gospel is going out to so many through these faithful men. Of course I don’t agree with them in everything, but I do understand in a sense that they want to be able to preach to the largest audience possible. It’s all about hills to die on. Is Calvinism a hill to die on? I certainly think so, for it underlies the very gospel itself. But these men are obviously not under the same convictions, and I can understand that to a certain extent.
Nathan,
I enjoyed our phone conversation last night. I’m glad you understand why I can’t mention some things on the blog concerning certain comments I made concerning certain men. Being in the megachurch scene for so long you develop relationships with these mens friends and I have heard so much that is why many calvinist are ” Blind ” on the issue I brought up. When their friends tell you the things you and I talked about that is why I can say ” It will cost them something ” because it is actually not my words but I’m repeating what these men have actually said to others so I don’t respond at times because it would require me to say more and on some things I can’t.
BTW, my talks with Dr. Emir Caner as I mentioned have been good. He is quite different than his brother(Ergun) meaning you can actually have good conversation about doctrine and practice on things we disagree about. We have been challenging each other with things to consider. We disagree on so much doctrine but he at least likes my churches position on the Lord’s Supper, confession reading, catechism reading and answer, the singing of hymns and psalms , and expository preaching in our service. He is a closed communion person(Church members only ) . He is very Baptistic in his doctrine of the church. He serves as a Dean at SWBTS with Dr. Patterson and the very words we talked about ” It will cost them something ” are his words also because he has said ” If you calvinist think ………. that they are going to stand up publicly and rebuke comments from Vines, Hunt and etc… you are dreaming. The anticalvinist group knows that some of our men will not challenge them publicly because they even say it ” It will cost them something ” however ,as he puts it that our side does. BTW, thanks for the article on the homeschool debate(Challis and Andrew) .RC Sproul jr and I talk on this still. My friends at Riverbend went through this stuff the last year and my neighbor who is a pastor is in the middle of it now at his church. I will plan the trip to Riverbend and I will drive us. Give me a few days to organize this trip with Pastor Roy. You will love the pastors at Riverbend. I served there and what a great church and group of guys.
Calvinism or Bust!…
I wrote not too long ago and asked, what is all the fuss about Calvinism? In that article, I was commenting on the contemporary resurgence of Calvinism in America as a way of introducing reformed theology to those who are perhaps new to it or just cu…..
Shhhhhhhhh… there is a resurgence. Sterilization is required to keep it from reproducing. Like a gangrene it will spread if not neutralized.
One of the things that I have recoginized on the net and in person is that attitude that says if we want to get along then we must learn to remain silent. That course sets well with the anti-Calvinist side. Silence has been their strongest suit and leads exactly where they want to go; ignorance of biblical doctrine, confusion about history and the more maleable mind. The test of the Calvinist claim will not be size but tenacity. However, the faithfulness of the message will have to extend across borders to be considered credible and it will have to kneaded with temerity. The greatest damage will come from the “populist” members of the Calvinist camp if indeed when in differing venues they do not hold to their confession and speak with boldness no matter the consequence. I believe one of the things that is evident from John MacArthur’s mega is that churches can be quite large and popularly represented and not be compromised on any of those fronts.
There is, as a matter of course, the danger that with any movement corrupting influences (”emerging” type problems, et ecetera), or that compromising of tenets, will exist (a.k.a. < 5). Again, that is where the true test of metal will be found: in self-examination and corrective discipline. If the Calvinist movement refuses its call to be always reforming and always proclaiming, it will join the rack of the many other suits in the evangelical closet, dismissed by the secular world as nothing different and ineffective at bringing a revived sense of biblical acumen to the body of Christ.
I would not say Johnny Hunt is “hostile” against an opposing theology. I view him as passionate about spreading the Gospel to everyone so that “whosoever” believes in Jesus will not perish. Don’t get me wrong, some of the personal bashes I have seen against him would be enough to make most people hostile but the only post I have ever seen from him in response to a blog was when he invited the blogger to call him. That man is filled with the love of God more than any man I have ever met, so I really think “hostile” is a little harsh.
Scott Morgan - I don’t know if you remember me brother, but I was at FBCW while you were still there. I love you, bro.
I just wish the disagreements over doctrines such as this were handled in a more civilized way. Speaking of such doctrines, a musician by the name of Flame speaks of them and states,
“But they’re in the Bible - we gotta talk about it.
We can still love each other and share our thoughts about it”
Hi Joe,
Thank you for your comments. I appreciate your kind tone, and value your opinion.
I would say that I disagree with a few things you said, however. Please understand that it is not my intention to bash Johnny Hunt or FBCW, but that my concern is with the theology being taught, not the person(s) and their intentions/motives. To avoid this discussion going into gossip or unnecessary specifics, feel free to email me directly for more specifics. There is certainly more to the story than I am going to share here.
Also, please understand that I speak from an informed position having been a member at FBCW for 10 years, one who has followed Hunt’s words regarding Calvinism, one who has interacted with Hunt both personally and privately regarding these things, and one who still regularly listens to his sermons on a weekly basis.
First, you said:
Maybe he has toned down the rhetoric lately, but there is no doubt that he has saved some of his harshest words in the pulpit for those who hold to Calvinism. He has mocked, misrepresented, and condemned the position for many years now, though I grant that he may have begun to tone things down a bit.
You said:
Yes, the argument here is not about his passion, but about what he preaches. I believe it can be easily shown that his understanding of ‘whosever will’ does not align with scripture, and that he is imbalanced and often wrong in his gospel presentation. I am a living, breathing example of one who has been a false convert under his ministry, as well as having seen the large number of false converts that his gospel call has produced.
Also, the term ‘whosever will’ is simply a descriptive term which is translated in the greek as ‘all the ones believing’. Surely, just as Jesus said ‘whosever will’, He also said ‘no man is able to come to Me’ and ‘you did not choose Me, but I chose you’. So when we emphasize ‘whosoever will’ above and beyond a biblical balance of the sovereign gospel call, and when we teach men that salvation is a decision, a choice, and something that we can freely do in our own power, then we dillude the grace of God, the salvation He offers by grace and not of works, and false converts are bound to increase 10fold.
That is all to say that it isn’t the proclamation of ‘whosever will’ that Calvinists have a problem with, but its rather what he means when he says it.
You said:
You are mistaken here, my friend. I am one who Johnny personally responded to on a blog, and his response speaks for itself. You may read the link and interaction here. Not to bring up old issues, but this interaction didn’t stop here, but continued into the pulpit for many months afterwards (though Hunt never mentioned my name directly, granted).
You said:
I’m not hear to talk about his love for God –that is all personal perception and beside the point. We are hear to talk about his love for scripture and for truth, which is a more objective way of determining his love for God.
You said:
I completely agree here, Joe. The problem, however, is that public words are always and should always be open to critique. Why is it that so many get upset when public sermons are publicly critiqued on blogs? There is no personal attack here other than to point out that we see great danger in the theology that some of the SBC leaders are preaching. It is their message, their message that is public and broadcasts to thousands, that we disagree with. But if you really want to alk about civilized discussions, then I think the SBC ‘Building Bridges’ conference last year was a huge step in that direction. Hopefully the John 3:16 conference coming up will provide more of the same…
Thanks again for your comments. Much grace to you, brother.
“Hopefully the John 3:16 conference coming up will provide more of the same…”
That’s hilarious, in a totally non-funny sort of way.