Again, I’m not trying to be harsh by questioning anyone’s profession. Rather, I am questioning the theology behind these leaders who actually believe that these numbers are anywhere close to reality. Please, I do not wish to offend, but only to voice what seems to be crystal-clear in the scriptures.

Regarding the comment about no regard for scripture: I listen to the sermons of some of these men, and clearly, their talks are full of ‘I believe this’ and ‘I believe this’, and come with little if any divine authority of scripture. Whatever comes from the pulpit is a clear indication of what is in a man’s heart, for he is going to say whatever he believes deep down will produce a result.

One question for you: what is it that determines whether someone is a ‘man of God’ or not? You stated that these men were, so would you be so kind as to share what make them different than just normal guys?

Thanks again and this is to let youknow that God is using you on these blogs. To Him be the Glory alone.

Recently the SBC that I had been attending was awarded the “Baptism Prize” for their Seven-Hundred percent increase in baptisms. They had seven last year compared to none the year before. Can I get a Praise the Lord?

I think that baptisms should be performed on Easter and the Cross boasted on. With all the occassional visitors present to witness the separation, it might just trim down the numbers of applicants, no?

First, I’m not accusing anybody of loving or not loving Jesus Christ. That is beside the point. I hope we can agree that we are all accountable to the Word of God no matter who we are or what we’ve done in the past.

Secondly, my post is specifically aimed at their theology, and not them personally. I did mention JR and Gary specially, particularly because I am familiar with what they teach, and also because they are based in my area. But my post is concerned with their theology, not them personally. (I did retract and apologize for one statement I made about them, and I did so not because I don’t believe the statement, but because I provided no evidence to support it).

Next, regarding Matt 18, the text is referring to a brother who sins, presumably in private and/or to you personally. I’m not accusing anyone of blatant sin, first of all (just wrong theology/methodology), and secondly, their announcement on their blogs is completely public. They announced something in public, and yet I’m to approach privately with an opinion that differs? I hope you can see that Matt 18 is not dealing with this situation. Public words have already been ‘told to the church’, which is the last step of Matt 18. We see many examples in scripture of the apostle Paul publicly rebuking someone whose actions and or doctrine was already known to all.

Nevertheless, JR is a great guy from what I know, but please don’t miss that it’s not him I’m attacking. I make no qualms about the fact that I believe their theology, from what they have spoken, is dangerous to the Body of Christ. I spent too many years (15 to be exact) under the delusion that I was saved because I had made a decision for Christ….God-forbid I am silent regarding what kept me deceived for so many years.

But while we’re on Matthew 18, I think it would be just as beneficial for you to approach JR and/or Gary and ask them if they plan to obey Matthew 18 if any of these decisions this past Sunday ever deny the faith and/or continue in sin. That’s probably a little bit more on topic. Just a thought.

Thanks for your kind words. I welcome and appreciate sensible, kind, and yes, constructive feedback. We all stumble in many ways…

You made this statement ” We are in times of change and if we are going to reach this dying generation we need to come at them with ways they understand “. First, what authority do you and I have to come at them with our ways to reach them besides the modeled ways in Scripture? What authority ??? Also, we are not in times of change as you mentioned. I hear this statement from Pastors and I myself am a senior pastor so I know the lingo. The Bible teaches on both of these issues: 1. ” ways they understand ” : 1 Cor 1: 18-31 refutes your statement. 2. ” Times of Change” : Romans 3:9-18 refutes your statement because man has never changed in his total depravity of heart.

Let me give another example of what Nathan is pointing out: How and where does JR Lee get the example of in Scripture of where he knows he had 10 decesions for Christ when we have no example(Not one) in Scripture that show men praying specific “Sinner prayers” to be converted. I’m not saying that men do not need to call upon the Lord to save them but where do we as Pastors and laity get the authority to look at people in the face and say since you prayed this prayer then you are saved and then the famous saying ” Don’t you ever doubt it” however, this is a false statement according to Scripture based on 2 Peter 1: 10 . Also, when we as Pastors announce we had ____ decesions today for Christ we may not admit it but we do mean this : We had 10 people saved today at Easter. How do we truly know this ?? According to Scripture James 2 :14-26 says that if these decesions don’t have works that follow then there has not been any saving faith. 1 John 2: 3-29 gives us examples of true saving faith.

Pastors use lingo that our congregations pick up on and we never really explain what we mean and it causes alot of confusion and people hold views on things that they can’t support in Scripture. Example: Dr. Johnny Hunt who I was on his staff at one time use to say this alot and it totally is wrong based on Scripture but I do believe he meant well and I certaintly say things at times I wish I had clarified better from the pulpit. Pastor Hunt said this alot: ” I may not be the smartest guy blessed God but( This is where he would jump up and down and the veins would bulge in his neck) and then the crowd would start cheering or whistle and he would say ” I would rather be ignorance on fire than be some suppose know it all(My words) . He liked to say this to slam Calvinist but his statement is so unbiblical because the Scripture says that the pastor is to : 1 Tim 1:3, 1 Tim 3:2 (The pastor must be apt to teach which requires Biblical knowledge, 1 Tim 4:13( Give attention to reading of Scripture and to exhortation, and doctrine) which means that the Pastor can’t afford to be ignorance on fire . So, JR means well and I’m sure he loves Christ and wants to be a faithful pastor but how does he really know that he had 10 conversions when he has had no time to see any evidence . This is where our churches all full of people that don’t read their Bibles, share the gospel, have the Bible at center in our homes, marriages that are dying, and etc… because we have aloud pastors and churches to say and practice things that have no example of scripture and we turn some tradiitons into ” Thus saith the Lord”. BTW, I really believe Dr. Hunt loves Christ and the church he pastors and is seeking to follow Christ but his theology has led him and his church to say and do things that are not correct and I have been guility myself and I pray I will not lead my church into error in the future. JR probably is seeing and doing what he saw in Pastor Hunt do however, JR has learned alot of great things from Pastor Hunt that glorify the Lord and build His church .

Thanks for your thoughts. I have one thought that I would like to ask you and others that say; “Shame on us for not doing all we can to reach these people.”

Do you evangelise everyone that you come in contact with in your personal life? Co workers, friends, family, aquaintances? I ask this because, why do we think that if we do not do this in our own lives, which is the command (go YOU into all the world), that we then expect the church institution to do this, which is really not the command? Instead of the church appealing to the masses through Easter Egg drops, concerts, etc, why are we not appealing to our personal world by telling them the good news and then inviting them to church to meet Christ instead of having fun? Can you see the hypocrisy in saying we need to do all we can to reach people but then sit back and believe that the primary mode of doing that is the church? Why then does not the church appeal to the masses by saying, “come this Sunday and meet the Savior” instead of an Easter Egg Drop? What do they come to church to see? What do they expect to see?

Maybe you do all these things in your personal life, but my experience is that those that say we need to do everything we can to evangelise do none in their own private world.

People do not seek the true God. They seek god but one that they create in their own minds. There are none that seek me , no not one. The only ones that seek God are those that the Father has given the Son. They hear and know His voice. Inticing with “hinderances and distractions” only calls the goats in. The true called ones will come without that. They come by God’s voice , the Word to us, and the Spirits quickening. The rest is fluff and if anything, bringing in the goats.

The church is not a circus and a mall of choices. It is a place of prayer and devotion. The rest belongs out in the world and after the prayer and devotion. The emphasis must be there, not on community outreach. Service is important , but that is not the main function of the church itself. That is the function of the believer out in the world. Can you not see that by doing this we are isolating the church from the very thing you claim not to want to do? We are becoming a world of ourselves , complete with our own music, our own entertainment, though it is really the same as the worlds, just with Jesus added. There is no distinction other than a few words and maybe a little morality. Even the unsaved have that. Look at Oprah.

I get so, so tired of the argument, “Have you personally contacted these men in private?”

Answer: Oh, you mean, in the same manner that you just rebuked me in public without calling first? I must’ve missed all your charitable attempts to come to me privately.

And this one, “What right do you have to touch God’s anointed?”

Answer: Oh, you mean, like the right you apparently have to decide they’re more anointed than I am, so I’m fair game for your public rebuke? Nice.

Do you evangelise everyone that you come in contact with in your personal life? Co workers, friends, family, aquaintances?

Can you enlighten both Fred and I on this?

As Fred pointed out…most people who are very vocal about defending their church’s outreach events wouldn’t hand a tract out, speak with someone on the street, or Street-preach if their life depended on it.

I’m just curious, is all.