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	<title>Comments on: Mike Horton on Joel Osteen&#8217;s Message: &#8220;It is certainly heresy&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/</link>
	<description>"Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you...”</description>
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		<title>By: DaMartyr</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-3516</link>
		<dc:creator>DaMartyr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Paul will say the law is good, but then say it no longer applies or will disrespect it.  I prefer the tradition of John, the apostle whom Jesus loved, over that of a murderer of Christians.  Too many Christians fail to realize their literal Israelite heritage, so they cling to the &quot;apostle of the gentilles&quot; as those are the scriptures that yield to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul will say the law is good, but then say it no longer applies or will disrespect it.  I prefer the tradition of John, the apostle whom Jesus loved, over that of a murderer of Christians.  Too many Christians fail to realize their literal Israelite heritage, so they cling to the &#8220;apostle of the gentilles&#8221; as those are the scriptures that yield to them.</p>
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		<title>By: George R.</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-3513</link>
		<dc:creator>George R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/#comment-3513</guid>
		<description>23And Jesus said to his disciples, &quot;Truly, I say to you,(AG) only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24(AH) Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter(AI) the kingdom of God.&quot; 25</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>23And Jesus said to his disciples, &#8220;Truly, I say to you,(AG) only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24(AH) Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter(AI) the kingdom of God.&#8221; 25</p>
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		<title>By: Jeane M.</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-3333</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeane M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 01:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/#comment-3333</guid>
		<description>Re: Joel Osteen&#039;s Message,
           New here by the way, what a discussion this has turned out to be huh? Here&#039;s my main problem with this man and what he&#039;s &#039;doing&#039; with the Gospel &#039;as per Joel and NOT God&#039;.  First of all, people are giving &#039;titles&#039; to him that even he won&#039;t except (pastor, preacher, rev., etc.), he says time and again that he&#039;s a &quot;christian motivational speaker&quot;.  Where in the Bible is this word even listed?
           His reasoning &#039;for not preaching on sin and redemption (or repentence)&#039;, there&#039;s no need to because those who are in that building (sorry y&#039;all but I don&#039;t consider it to be a church as we know it) are &#039;already&#039; saved and know about God and Jesus.  Oh really! So, what do you do about the ones who might &#039;sneak in under the radar&#039;, and who might not be saved, don&#039;t know Jesus as their Lord and Savior, or have fallen out of fellowship with God?
          Holding up a Bible at the beginning and end of a service (I&#039;m still waiting for someone to get back to me with a &#039;full session&#039;, where he reads from the Word, and talks about what Jesus did for ALL of us and why he came. Only one person so far has said that the cable network Daystar Network shows &#039;full sessions&#039;, but I have to check that out for myself because I receive Daystar and haven&#039;t seen it yet myself.), rather than &#039;opening it up and reading from it&#039; especially to those who need to know the &#039;true&#039; meaning of the Gospel, and the message on sin and redemption, and mentioning Jesus&#039; name each and &quot;every&quot; time.
        Sorry to go on and on here, but there are w-a-y too many people on their way to hell via the &#039;watered-down&#039; word, delivered by men (and women) who &#039;say&#039; they know and love God, but their &#039;actions&#039; prove vastly different from their words and that&#039;s the really horrific thing here.  &quot;Tell the truth and make satan (and some of us as well) out to be the no good liar he&#039;s always been and always will be.  It&#039;s past time for Joel and those people to get right and seek Christ before time draws to a close, and I pray they do it soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Joel Osteen&#8217;s Message,<br />
           New here by the way, what a discussion this has turned out to be huh? Here&#8217;s my main problem with this man and what he&#8217;s &#8216;doing&#8217; with the Gospel &#8216;as per Joel and NOT God&#8217;.  First of all, people are giving &#8216;titles&#8217; to him that even he won&#8217;t except (pastor, preacher, rev., etc.), he says time and again that he&#8217;s a &#8220;christian motivational speaker&#8221;.  Where in the Bible is this word even listed?<br />
           His reasoning &#8216;for not preaching on sin and redemption (or repentence)&#8217;, there&#8217;s no need to because those who are in that building (sorry y&#8217;all but I don&#8217;t consider it to be a church as we know it) are &#8216;already&#8217; saved and know about God and Jesus.  Oh really! So, what do you do about the ones who might &#8217;sneak in under the radar&#8217;, and who might not be saved, don&#8217;t know Jesus as their Lord and Savior, or have fallen out of fellowship with God?<br />
          Holding up a Bible at the beginning and end of a service (I&#8217;m still waiting for someone to get back to me with a &#8216;full session&#8217;, where he reads from the Word, and talks about what Jesus did for ALL of us and why he came. Only one person so far has said that the cable network Daystar Network shows &#8216;full sessions&#8217;, but I have to check that out for myself because I receive Daystar and haven&#8217;t seen it yet myself.), rather than &#8216;opening it up and reading from it&#8217; especially to those who need to know the &#8216;true&#8217; meaning of the Gospel, and the message on sin and redemption, and mentioning Jesus&#8217; name each and &#8220;every&#8221; time.<br />
        Sorry to go on and on here, but there are w-a-y too many people on their way to hell via the &#8216;watered-down&#8217; word, delivered by men (and women) who &#8217;say&#8217; they know and love God, but their &#8216;actions&#8217; prove vastly different from their words and that&#8217;s the really horrific thing here.  &#8220;Tell the truth and make satan (and some of us as well) out to be the no good liar he&#8217;s always been and always will be.  It&#8217;s past time for Joel and those people to get right and seek Christ before time draws to a close, and I pray they do it soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Twitchell</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-2643</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Twitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 05:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>“Holy and reverend is HIS name.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Gee, I thought that his saints were called his holy ones? And, the proper appreciation according to Scripture of one who is in authority is reverence, i.e. to fear. The word of title would be the one to be feared, reverend. We are to pay honor to whom honor is due and fear to whom fear is due. Perhaps part of the problem with the church today is a lack of proper fear of authority. The elders (reverends) are to be feared as those who can prosecute the legal authority in the church. The proper title, and one that should be revered among us is Reverend. That is a title, somewhat like what Sarah was commended for in calling her husband lord, adon, master, a dimunitive for of the word Adonai. I am sure that Michael Horton&#8217;s students are just a little fearful of him. As either Dr. or Reverend the intent is a good one, tradition or not. It is surely not a name that is reserved just for God any more than elohim, seeing that he has also called us governors.</p>
<p>Supersitition and legalism will kill ya, Mark.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-2640</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/#comment-2640</guid>
		<description>Good work, Nathan. Keep it up.

Well, except for that part where you use an appellation that belongs to God alone for a mere (though good) man, Mr. Horton.  Hmmm.  Just guessing here, but it&#039;s probably Doctor Horton?


&quot;Holy and reverend is HIS name.&quot;  Psalm 111:9.

Centuries of tradition don&#039;t justify this common practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good work, Nathan. Keep it up.</p>
<p>Well, except for that part where you use an appellation that belongs to God alone for a mere (though good) man, Mr. Horton.  Hmmm.  Just guessing here, but it&#8217;s probably Doctor Horton?</p>
<p>&#8220;Holy and reverend is HIS name.&#8221;  Psalm 111:9.</p>
<p>Centuries of tradition don&#8217;t justify this common practice.</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; Irked again. Free will leads to&#8230;Joel Osteen? &#187; But if I say I will not mention Him&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-2361</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Irked again. Free will leads to&#8230;Joel Osteen? &#187; But if I say I will not mention Him&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/#comment-2361</guid>
		<description>[...] I got an email from Joel Osteen today, telling me I could pay $15 to come hear him tell me how much God wants me to get rich. Um, no thanks. But it did get me searching the Internet again to see if anyone else has caught on how much Joel Osteen really isn&#8217;t at all about the Gospel or the God of Scripture. And I found Nathan White commenting on Joel Osteen. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I got an email from Joel Osteen today, telling me I could pay $15 to come hear him tell me how much God wants me to get rich. Um, no thanks. But it did get me searching the Internet again to see if anyone else has caught on how much Joel Osteen really isn&#8217;t at all about the Gospel or the God of Scripture. And I found Nathan White commenting on Joel Osteen. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Twitchell</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-1959</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Twitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/#comment-1959</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where, pray tell, is Paul mentioned in Jn? Beside that, you&#8217;d have a very difficult time explaining the OT law without the lenses of the NT, especially Paul&#8217;s instruction. Again, examine the verses that I quoted. Note, what Paul said to Timothy was a restatement of the OT:<br />
<blockquote>You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you&#8230;The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law&#8230;This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p> and so forth. I have never found anything contradictory to the OT in what Paul taught.</p>
<p>Those Scriptures Jesus reissues as :<br />
<blockquote>Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.</p></blockquote>
<p>Paul says the same thing:<br />
<blockquote>So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.</p></blockquote>
<p>And, as I pointed out, Peter himself says that what Paul says is Scripture:<br />
<blockquote>which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.</p></blockquote>
<p>What I sense then is that you are one of them. You have inserted Paul&#8217;s name into a Scripture where it does not exist for the purpose of twisting what you do not understand about Paul&#8217;s teaching.</p>
<p>Some how I would imaging you would deny:<br />
<blockquote>And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,  knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone&#8217;s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.</p></blockquote>
<p>because you aligned this book with being a false testimony, one in which Peter has been deluded by Paul, right? How convenient. In this very book Peter says that what Paul says has been given to Paul as wisdom. There is a consistency between, God breathed, carried along, and wisdom given and the fact is that lines up perfectly with the OT revelation of how God speaks. Obviously Peter is considering those who deny the truth of Scripture, but includes what he says and what Paul says and concludes that their own very words are the words of the OT YHWH spoken through he and Paul. So then, you must decide if Peter was a false prophet. Since there is never once any indication that Peter was anything but Christ&#8217;s own servant, that is going to be difficult, indeed.</p>
<p>So your task, if you can do so, is to prove that Paul is the one Jesus speaks of, but I do not think you will be able to. In fact, at most what can be said is that it is either a reference to those who would put him to death, or the Holy Spirit. My money is on the second. For when we are old, when we are mature, we come to know that it is not we, or any other man who carries us along, but the Lord.</p>
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		<title>By: Da Martyr</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-1956</link>
		<dc:creator>Da Martyr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:49:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/#comment-1956</guid>
		<description>Thomas, thanks for the response, but it doesn&#039;t completely answer my question.  The question was why do people quote his scriptures so much MORE than Jesus or YHVH (generally speaking and not just concerning this blog post)?  When it comes to whether or not we are to follow the laws, I see people cite Paul saying they don&#039;t need to, but God clearly tells us in the OT and even Jesus in the NT that we are to follow those.  People take his words over Jesus&#039; words or James (Jesus&#039; brother) words.  In response to Peter&#039;s confirmation of Paul, Jesus prophecized that Peter would mistakenly support Paul near the end of his life in John 21:18 (Peter&#039;s approval of Paul came at the end of his life).

Jhn 21:18  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas, thanks for the response, but it doesn&#8217;t completely answer my question.  The question was why do people quote his scriptures so much MORE than Jesus or YHVH (generally speaking and not just concerning this blog post)?  When it comes to whether or not we are to follow the laws, I see people cite Paul saying they don&#8217;t need to, but God clearly tells us in the OT and even Jesus in the NT that we are to follow those.  People take his words over Jesus&#8217; words or James (Jesus&#8217; brother) words.  In response to Peter&#8217;s confirmation of Paul, Jesus prophecized that Peter would mistakenly support Paul near the end of his life in John 21:18 (Peter&#8217;s approval of Paul came at the end of his life).</p>
<p>Jhn 21:18  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Twitchell</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-1935</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Twitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/#comment-1935</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>By the way, what’s up with all these people quoting Saul of Tarsus more than our Lord Jesus Christ and YHVH</p></blockquote>
<p>Because to quote Paul is to quote YWVH  and our Lord:<br />
<blockquote> All <strong>Scripture is breathed </strong>out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness </p></blockquote>
<p>or if you like the OT:<br />
<blockquote>Then the Lord put out his hand and touched my mouth. And the Lord said to me, “Behold, I have put<strong> my words </strong>in your mouth.</p></blockquote>
<p> For Peters confirmation of God&#8217;s words in Paul&#8217;s mouth:<br />
<blockquote> And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the <strong>wisdom given him</strong>,  as he does<strong> in all his letters when he speaks </strong>in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other <strong>Scriptures</strong>.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Da Martyr</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-1934</link>
		<dc:creator>Da Martyr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/10/17/mike-horton-on-joel-osteens-message-it-is-certainly-heresy/#comment-1934</guid>
		<description>Although I don&#039;t know enough about him to hate, I suspect that Osteen is just another coward &quot;Christian&quot; who hates on the O.T. laws and is more about getting massive amounts of people at his church by only focusing on the messages of love and forgiveness as opposed to all of the truth.  By the way, what&#039;s up with all these people quoting Saul of Tarsus more than our Lord Jesus Christ and YHVH?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I don&#8217;t know enough about him to hate, I suspect that Osteen is just another coward &#8220;Christian&#8221; who hates on the O.T. laws and is more about getting massive amounts of people at his church by only focusing on the messages of love and forgiveness as opposed to all of the truth.  By the way, what&#8217;s up with all these people quoting Saul of Tarsus more than our Lord Jesus Christ and YHVH?</p>
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