“Because?” Pitts asks.

“Well, it makes religion about us instead of about God,” Horton explains.”

This doesn’t even make sense. If God is our resource for a best life now it has nothing to do with us and everything to do with God.
People need to be 1000% more careful how they use the word heresy. Their is nothing I have ever seen by Osteen that even comes close to heretical. Another baseless attack on a man of God. for shame!

Chris, Jesus didn’t come to bring peace, but a sword. Truly embracing Jesus makes our life here on earth much worse, not better. Osteen promises blessings that are not there, as he puts the focus of Christianity on what we want instead of what God wants.

Chris said: People need to be 1000% more careful how they use the word heresy. Their is nothing I have ever seen by Osteen that even comes close to heretical.

I certainly agree that we need to be careful about using the word heresy, but I still believe that true heresy needs to be called out as such –as it was in Osteen’s case. But furthermore, the word ‘heresy’ is most accurately described as that which is completely contrary to Christian doctrine, mostly as defined through church history. Regardless of whether you think Osteen is right or wrong, you must admit that his teaching is contrary to historic Christianity.

Chris said: Their is nothing I have ever seen by Osteen that even comes close to heretical.

Well then I must say that you’ll probably disagree with about 99% of what I write on this blog, as I strive to take the scriptures as the final rule of authority, and I see a direct contradiction between what Osteen teaches and what the scriptures themselves teach.

Just curious have you read the book? Have you attended several services and been involved at his church to see whats going on aside from the TV broadcast or a book? If not how can anyone make a judgment like heresy! Truly folly!

Never have I ever heard Osteen say prosperity and hope mean money and possessions. Never have I heard him say that we will not suffer, be persecuted and carry the cross daily. If I am wrong please show me where he says that.

Jesus also says that God will take care of us. That only the LOVE of money makes it our master. I have heard/read nothing from Osteen that contradicts Jesus’ teachings. In fact if anything Osteen models Jesus’ teachings in a way more preachers should.

Once again heresy is a serious charge and it is a false charge in this case. For shame again!

You are correct, our life is MUCH harder when we are a follower of Jesus. But our lives are also infinitely more blessed as well. The idea that our lives cannot be both is shortsighted and nowhere in the bible. In fact God blesses people over and over in the bible. Certainly Solomon was extremely blessed in many ways including material things.

So if God has called Osteen to deliver a message of hope, which is what he is doing on the basic level, who are you or anyone for that matter to attack, criticize and call heretical?

There are plenty of heretical doctrines out there that need to be fought but Osteen isn’t one of them. Sorry but these attacks on pastors and churches over nonsense are purely self-serving. Some of them are warranted but certain people spend a lot of time searching out other Christians to attack rather than doing real ministry (not saying you are one of them). What a waste!

Chris, Joel himself admits that he does not preach on sin, hell, righteousness, holiness, etc. Instead, he picks out the things that he knows people want to hear, and then he discards the rest. This is the same guy who got on Larry King and wouldn’t even admit that Jews/Muslims etc., will face an eternity of God’s wrath for their rejection of Jesus. That, my friend, is what scripture calls a false prophet.

So just to be clear, it isn’t me that is calling Joel Osteen a heretic; instead, I will let scripture do the talking.

But thank you for the kind words about my blog; I do hope that you keep reading.

Heretics and false prophets are out there but Osteen isn’t one of them and you and others do a great disservice to our faith and our cause when you sloppily throw that charge around.

I do not know how much you know about “word faith” theology. And, I think that you need to take the time trace the roots of posive confessionalism. Horton doesn’t just make the leap concerning the truncating of the Gospel. He begins:

“Name it, claim it”; the “health‐and‐wealth” or “prosperity gospel”: these are nicknames for a heresy that in many respects is only an extreme version of perhaps the most typical focus of American Christianity today more generally. Basically, God is there for you and your happiness. He has some rules and principles for getting what you want out of life and if you follow them, you can have what you want. Just “declare it” and prosperity will come to you. God as Personal Shopper.
Although explicit proponents of the so‐called “prosperity gospel” may be fewer than their influence suggests, its big names and best‐selling authors (T. D. Jakes, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, and Joyce Meyer) are purveyors of a pagan worldview with a peculiarly American flavor.”

Horton extends this heresy to a wide variety of “christian” communities. The term pragmatism is not isolated to just the idea of praxis. The way that it is used, negatively, is what Horton calls an appeal to the law. This has always been condemned in Scripture. It is known as manipulation, using as Horton says, and this is my term, “magic talisman christianity,” to obtain favor from God. This is the christianity of Madame Guyon and the likes. It is heresy to take the things of the Lord and use them in a occult practice. It denies grace and makes a mockery of the Faith by introducing “works.” It should be obvious that this is paganism, an occultic praxis that operates on the basis of formulas: “If you do this, God will do this.” It fits within the broder realm of christian communities in the most benign looking ways. It is typically found bound up in very conservative anti-charismatic, anti-Pentecostal organinzations that hold to the manipulative conscience of the theology know as Arminianism. These are some of the beliefs of Osteen’s church:

water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ and a testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ

First of all, I would ask you to look and find where Scripture declares us to be baptized in the blood of Christ. While it is true that we have a clean conscience having our minds sprinkle with the blood of Christ, there is no passage that says we were baptized into it. Let’s see what Scripture says:

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void…For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit…For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ…Or are you unaware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death…So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves…For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have appointed it to you to make atonement on the altar for your lives, since it is the lifeblood that makes atonement…He entered the holy of holies once for all, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption….

Notice, it is not the blood, but the body, and it is not his life but his death. His death is our point of entry, not his blood. And, in reality the blood is not applied to us, but to him, and cleanses us, by virtue of we being in him, and that by his death. Secondly, it is not a testimony to our faith, but, as Paul said it testifies of Him. That is why Paul did not baptize, so that there would be no confusion as to where the efficacy was. Jesus did not either, and said

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

It is by the declaration of the Father that we are saved, it is not as Osteen’s confession says:

that salvation is found by placing our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross.”

This is exactly what Paul wanted to avoid- a pragmatic view of salvation. “If you do this, God will do this.”

Pragmatism, negatively characterized as an occult practice, is found embedded in Arminian Semi-Pelagianism (Horton’s “typical focus of American Christianity”), which teaches that if we try with God’s help we can overcome. So, instead of what the Scripture teaches:

These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world, and: But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

Joel Osteen teaches

as children of God, we are overcomers and more than conquerors and God intends for each of us to experience the abundant life He has in store for us.”

He defeats the positive declaration of Scripture that Christ has given us the abundant life, “I have overcome,” by making it something that “God intends,” implying, and this is what he teaches, that those who are not experiecing abundance just are not trying hard enough. This goes directly the opposite direction of:

Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.

It is not a light thing when the word heresy is used, and the subject is as you pointed out much deeper than it look on the surface. That is why is is so it is so deceptive. One of the things that Osteen has done as Horton points out, was to remove the “fire and brimstone,” preaching that used to characterize the word faith teachers. This is not a good step, but a further moving away from law and Gospel (not that the Arminianism of word faith ever understood the two.)

His wife is the “co-pastor” of the church. This in itself is a LARGE red flag in that it goes against Biblical teaching as to the place of a woman in the church. Although I do not know her specific role, just using the term co-pastor raises many concerns over the Biblical (or non-Biblical) approach of Joel and this church.

Lastly, may I make the comment that if a church has a following of that many people it almost certainly has compromised in the area of Biblical teaching.
Wide is the path that leads to destruction…and many are that find it….

The gospel and yes, religion as a whole, is not about man, it is about God.

I agree with the gist of all you say in this post, Nathan. However, I am unsure whether your wording captures the right biblical balance. Alongside Jesus’ statements about self-denial, taking up our cross, hating our own lives, losing our lives for his sake, etc., he also appealed to us to accumulate treasure in heaven, to seek to be exalted (by first debasing ourselves - Luke 14:10), and to seek rest for our souls (Mat.11:29). In Romans 2:7 Paul describes true believers as those who seek their own “glory, honor and immortality”. Paul endured extreme hardships, at least partly in order to share in the blessings of the gospel (1 Cor.9:23). And in 2 Tim.4:8 Paul was looking forward to receiving a reward for his work for Christ.

So although the expression “It’s not about me, it’s all about God” contains an important truth and is a much needed corrective for the modern church in the West, I think it should not be understood in an absolute sense. How many of us would choose to suffer eternal torment in hell if somehow that would glorify God more than us being eternally saved?

Respectfully …. Phil

However, I am unsure whether your wording captures the right biblical balance.

Phil, I think we’re on the same page. I knew when I posted this that some might get a wrong impression, mainly because I didn’t have the space to clarify everything. But for the most part, I think I agree with what you are saying.

Phil said:

How many of us would choose to suffer eternal torment in hell if somehow that would glorify God more than us being eternally saved?

That’s not what I was hitting at. Instead, we should and must have the mindset that God is completely sovereign, and that it is up to Him what to do with our eternal souls. If we are seeking salvation only to be saved from torment, then I would certainly encourage others to take another look at that profession. Certainly, escaping punishment is a valid stimulant to repenting and turning to Christ, and it is probably the only thing on our minds at the moment of salvation, but as we learn and grow, we should and must have the view that our salvation is for God’s glory above and beyond everything else. If we are seeking anything else, be it good works, rewards, temporal happiness, without an overarching dominant view for God’s glory alone, then we have become modern day pharisees and are probably outside of Christ.

Hope that helps explain what I was trying to say, even though I think I agree completely with what you were saying.

God bless

Heresy is not so much rejecting as selecting. The heretic simply selects the parts of the Scripture he wants to emphasize and lets the rest go. This is shown by the etymology of the word heresy and by the practice of the heretic. “Beware,” an editorial scribe of the fourteenth century warned his readers in the preface to a book. “Beware thou take not one thing after thy affection and liking, and leave another: for that is the condition of an heretique. But take everything with other.” The old scribe knew well how prone we are to take to ourselves those parts of the truth that please us and ignore the other parts. And that is heresy.

—A. W. Tozer, We Travel An Appointed Way.

Thanks Hannah!

I guess my proble is determining what the message of hope is? Hope from what or to what?
By his own declaration, Osteen doesn’t talk about sin or condemnation, so what would one have hope for?

If there is no condemnation, or wrath to escape, then the implication is one for a prosperity gospel - the material life now.

Without understanding our position of offending a holy and just God, then we have nothing to aspire to - to “hope” for.

Nathan…excellent article on Joel Osteen and churches that gut the Gospel message of Jesus Christ and our sin debt. Those who make God about us…rather than recognizing that it’s all about Him and that He is a righteous, omnipotent, holy God. If they even begin to grasp that…the watered Gospel would go away. These folks are unwittingly doing Satan’s bidding. If he can’t keep us from going to church…he does the next best thing. He keeps us from hearing God word…which is able to transform lives…and bring men from death to live in Christ Jesus our Lord. Thank you for being a truth teller! I stand in Christ alone…Susan Bunts

By the way, what’s up with all these people quoting Saul of Tarsus more than our Lord Jesus Christ and YHVH

Because to quote Paul is to quote YWVH and our Lord:

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

or if you like the OT:

Then the Lord put out his hand and touched my mouth. And the Lord said to me, “Behold, I have put my words in your mouth.

For Peters confirmation of God’s words in Paul’s mouth:

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Jhn 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not.

You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you…The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law…This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him…

and so forth. I have never found anything contradictory to the OT in what Paul taught.

Those Scriptures Jesus reissues as :

Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Paul says the same thing:

So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

And, as I pointed out, Peter himself says that what Paul says is Scripture:

which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

What I sense then is that you are one of them. You have inserted Paul’s name into a Scripture where it does not exist for the purpose of twisting what you do not understand about Paul’s teaching.

Some how I would imaging you would deny:

And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

because you aligned this book with being a false testimony, one in which Peter has been deluded by Paul, right? How convenient. In this very book Peter says that what Paul says has been given to Paul as wisdom. There is a consistency between, God breathed, carried along, and wisdom given and the fact is that lines up perfectly with the OT revelation of how God speaks. Obviously Peter is considering those who deny the truth of Scripture, but includes what he says and what Paul says and concludes that their own very words are the words of the OT YHWH spoken through he and Paul. So then, you must decide if Peter was a false prophet. Since there is never once any indication that Peter was anything but Christ’s own servant, that is going to be difficult, indeed.

So your task, if you can do so, is to prove that Paul is the one Jesus speaks of, but I do not think you will be able to. In fact, at most what can be said is that it is either a reference to those who would put him to death, or the Holy Spirit. My money is on the second. For when we are old, when we are mature, we come to know that it is not we, or any other man who carries us along, but the Lord.

Well, except for that part where you use an appellation that belongs to God alone for a mere (though good) man, Mr. Horton. Hmmm. Just guessing here, but it’s probably Doctor Horton?

“Holy and reverend is HIS name.” Psalm 111:9.

Centuries of tradition don’t justify this common practice.

“Holy and reverend is HIS name.”

Gee, I thought that his saints were called his holy ones? And, the proper appreciation according to Scripture of one who is in authority is reverence, i.e. to fear. The word of title would be the one to be feared, reverend. We are to pay honor to whom honor is due and fear to whom fear is due. Perhaps part of the problem with the church today is a lack of proper fear of authority. The elders (reverends) are to be feared as those who can prosecute the legal authority in the church. The proper title, and one that should be revered among us is Reverend. That is a title, somewhat like what Sarah was commended for in calling her husband lord, adon, master, a dimunitive for of the word Adonai. I am sure that Michael Horton’s students are just a little fearful of him. As either Dr. or Reverend the intent is a good one, tradition or not. It is surely not a name that is reserved just for God any more than elohim, seeing that he has also called us governors.

Supersitition and legalism will kill ya, Mark.