Sin: Today vs. Yesterday
Aug 30th, 2007 by Nathan White
I’ve always been intrigued by the debate concerning old-time athletes and how they would’ve supposedly performed in today’s modern era. With Barry Bonds recently breaking the baseball all-time home run record, this discussion has come up quite a bit as of late: “What would’ve Babe Ruth accomplished if he played in this decade?” And so the speculations go.
But the general tendency of historians is to glorify or ‘romanticize’ the past and its key figures as much more glorious than they were in actuality (especially in sports and other secular arenas). Sometimes this is understandable. Nobody really knew what Babe Ruth was accomplishing until well after he was dead, as baseball hadn’t been around very long when he burst onto the scene. The same argument could be given for the legacy of America’s founding fathers, some presidents down through history, etc. But keep in mind that the argument goes both ways: history, in general, is subject to who it is that writes the history books. Our perception of past events is largely subject to the accuracy of which historical reports we esteem the highest.
Shifting our focus to Christianity and its key figures down through church history, I am intrigued by the perception held by many of today’s Christians concerning certain things in church history. Close attention to history, just like close attention to doctrine, isn’t exactly encouraged in the professing church now days. Thus, it shouldn’t be surprising that many erroneous perceptions and misconceptions about church history abound in our day.
From my limited observation and experience, I see a few concerns with the modern church in evaluating history, including:
- A tendency to look down upon the doctrine/theology of church history, as if in all of the modern advances in other fields, we have somehow ‘arrived’ to a higher/deeper/more accurate understanding of scripture than others did before us.
- A tendency to glorify certain figures of our own particular theological persuasions, while vilifying others who advocated doctrines which we disagree with. For example, John Calvin is loved in the Reformed Community, but despised and painted in a very negative light in the Arminian crowds.
- An ignorance of the errors, controversies, and heresies of church history. There is certainly nothing new under the sun, only repackaged goods. Thus, new doctrines and fads come along as nothing but repackaged errors fancied up to appeal in a different manner, and the tendency is to swallow them hook-line-and-sinker without considering how the same errors probably originated in a different form, many years earlier.
- A casual dismissal of ‘old truth’ –the doctrines of scripture that have been taught for hundreds and hundreds of years, in favor of new fads and viewpoints. This sort of aligns with my first point, as in their pride, many look on the old truths as outdated and insufficient, while suggesting new ways of looking at things as if the church has ‘missed it’ all along. Such arrogance is mind-boggling to me, but it continues to go on, even in my own Reformed community.
More could be said on the points above, but I have one more thought in mind that I’d like to focus on, and that is the *standard* of the Christian life then, versus now.
Remember the baseball illustration above? What if we applied the same sort of grid to the Christian life? What would a man like Jonathan Edwards look like living in today’s society? Would he have the same brilliant mind, the same hatred of sin, the same level of sanctification? Just how much does our culture influence holiness (either positively or negatively)?
A great example to help us consider this would be that of George Whitefield. Upon describing his life before salvation, Whitefield confesses that he was “a Sabbath-breaker, a theater-goer, a card-player, and a romance-reader.”
Personally, I find this statement utterly amazing. It’s like he is in a completely different world when he points to his ‘heinous’ sins with these examples!
Sabbath-breaker? The majority of Christians now days do not see this as a sin, much less as something that evidenced an unregenerate heart.
Theater-goer? Who isn’t now days, believer or unbeliever?
Card-player? Do video games, sporting events, and hobbies count the same? From his words, I believe so, for no mention is made of gambling.
Romance-reader? Secular narratives in books, T.V., movies, and magazines abound, for both believers and unbelievers alike.
First, I find it amazing that most Christians now days would have no trouble with any of the four things listed above. In fact, if we were to speak out against such things in any situation other than gross abuse, we would most certainly be labeled as legalistic and self-righteous!
Secondly, all of these have a specific reference to how Whitefield spent his free time. I know this because I am currently finishing up Dallimore’s famous 2-volume biography of Whitefield (I could not recommend it highly enough!), and Whitefield mentions again and again the Christian’s serious obligation to redeem spare time. In fact, if there is ever a re-occurring theme as I read the old stuff (Puritans, etc.), the use of our free time is always given a significant prominence in their teaching.
Thus, has the standard changed? I understand that cultures come and go. No doubt that something might have been a faux pas then that is not viewed in the same manner now. But clearly, sin as it was seen then, and as it is seen now, are sometimes completely different things.
Why has the standard changed? Should we just accept this without questioning it? Why is the use of our free time no longer a clear and precise indicator of our salvation/sanctification? Why are hobbies and entertainments only looked at as evil if they take up too much of our life, as if measuring ourselves by ourselves really gives us an accurate picture of what is acceptable?
I believe it is partly due to the changing nature of the gospel. Fear of legalism and turning people off to Christianity has led the message to be one of personal fulfillment rather than personal sacrifice. The message now days, slanted to the itching ears of sinners, consists of:
Were you a movie enthusiast as an unbeliever? Now you can go see movies to the glory of Christ! Were you a drunkard when you lived according to the world? Now you can drink as much as you want (in moderation) and give glory to Christ! Prideful before? Now you can be prideful in Christ! In a Rock and Roll band? Bring that guitar to church and do the same for Jesus!
Much more could be said, but Tozer sums it up much better than I ever could. Consider this as I bring this topic to a close right here:
“The new cross does not slay the sinner, it redirects him. It gears him into a cleaner and jollier way of living and saves his self-respect. To the self-assertive it says, “Come and assert yourself for Christ.” To the egotist it says, “Come and do your boasting in the Lord.” To the thrill- seeker it says, “Come and enjoy the thrill of Christian fellowship.” The Christian message is slanted in the direction of the current vogue in order to make it acceptable to the public.”
That is amazing, isn’t it. And today we have pastors who actually recommend on their blogs - some of the worst R-rated movies, saying things like “There’s some nudity and lots of vulgarities in the movie so you’ll want to leave the kids at home, but the movie has some great cultural lessons that you don’t want to miss. It will help you to see Christianity through the eyes of an unbeliever”. And since evangelism is used at the point, it becomes an unbeatable recommendation. Any objections are countered with “you must not care about souls”. Thanks for another great post Nathan; I will link to this soon.
I think we need to realize that none of the things mentioned by Whitefield( i include sabbath breaking only because many Christians believe that we are not required to observe a strict sabbath), are sinful in themselves. Whitefield sounds to me legalistic in some sense. Don’t these things(again, making an exception for the sabbath) represent activities left up to a believers individual conscience? Certainly we would not say playing cards, going to movies or reading non biblical books is sinful, would we? Let’s remember that Whitefield was not writing scripture here, and these activities are never mentioned in the Bible as sinful. These things are not considered sins because they aren’t. What Whitefield said sounds typical of what one would find in many fundamental Baptist churches.
Jodi
Thanks for posting this Nathan. I believe you are right in saying that our standards have changed. The vast majority of Christians today are enslaved to their flesh. Why? They aren’t discipled correctly if at all. In the day of Owen, Bunyan, Whitefield, and Edwards these men knew their Lord much deeper than most of us. They spent time with Him in prayer, worship and Bible Study. They also obeyed Him.
What happens when a believer spends time with God? They are changed because they must repent. Look at Isaiah 6! In any case, the more time we spend with God the more tenderhearted we become toward Him and, therefore, the more godly or Christlike we become. Conversely, the more time we spend feeding our flesh’s wants and desires, the harder out hearts become toward God. We lose the concept of it being sin to seek fulfillment from anything or anyone other than Him.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Jodi:
But it wasn’t just Whitefield who talked like that. Basically, you would need to declare his whole generation of believers as resembling “a bunch of fundy legalists”. Is there a chance that you might be the one who is off, instead of Whitefield? I’m always amazed at how quickly modern believers are willing to throw men like Whitefield under the bus.
PS: Nathan, I have an inbound link to this post today, hence the extra comments on your post. Sorry for not warning you earlier.
Jim,
I would hardly throw Whitefield or his like under the bus, as I agree with much of what he and others have said.I consider myself a fundamentalist and surely on the Calvinistic wagon- just to give my credentials.
I am not concerned with how many people say something or agree on a certain topic, but is it biblical/unbiblical?
Are we really saying that a Christian should not read books that aren’t biblical persay? Or watch movies,or play cards? Surely not- that is my whole point. These men and many others like them today saw the sin around them and very validly commented, but I would not want to take their every comment and opinion as gospel. I don’t know why they said what they said, possibly they were speaking of “christians” who live like the world on a consistent level, but I am willing to bet that George read books for pleasure as well as for Christian edification- do we have proof that he never played cards or did anything at all for pleasure other than to read the bible, pray, go to church? Do you(any and all readers of this thread) only do those things?- if not, then you should repent if you take Whitefield literally. Don’t watch movies, read books that are not biblical, play cards(board games, twister, etc.). this would include playing games with your kids, or reading fairy tales to them, etc. Then everyone can know that you are truly Christians. Surely now, we can see where extremism here can lead to.
Jodi
Jim,
Thanks for the link, brother. I hope others will be as challenged by Whitefield’s words as I am.
Jodi,
I think you’re looking at it the wrong way. Let me reiterate something I tried to emphasize in my post:
-Saints of old seemed to have a much deeper understanding of sinfulness, than many do today. (And note: the fundamentalism that you refer to is definitely a very shallow understanding of sin.)
-Whitefield, in mentioning these things, seemed to be placing a particular emphasis on his heart affections, how he spent his free time, etc.
Here’s the thing: it isn’t that playing cards and going to the theater are always off limits. Instead, I think Whitefield rightly understood that his participation in these things indicated the idolatry of his own heart.
Unfortunately, today, the fundamentalist movement and the free grace/no law/shallow seeker-sensitive movement have distorted understanding of these issues so much that people run to each extreme: it is always a sin to (fill in the blank), or it is never a sin to (fill in the blank). My point is that looking back at the ‘Old Truth’ (to steal a line from Jim) reveals that many godly men had a keener, deeper sense of their own sin, and were not swept away by the extremes of fundamentalism or the shallowness of claiming the scriptural ‘right’ to do such and such.
Again, if I stood up in most any church today and described by pre-conversion life as a lover of video games, sports, and Sabbath-breaking, I’d be looked at as an utter fool because so many today just automatically assume that these things (and other things) are just fine for the Christian. Instead, we should take a closer, deeper look at these things and realize that our outward pursuits and use of free time are very telling indicators of our heart affections.
Let’s examine the saints of old, and how they defined sin. Doing so, I believe, reveals an understanding of depravity and holiness that is seldom found in the church today.
How come the apostles didn’t command the Gentiles to observe this “Sabbath Day” at the council? I will quote them in partial here, “…that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment…”
“…AND KEEP THE LAW” IE: SABBATH DAYS, ETC.
“SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS” is what the apostles said this was!
Who is any man to make another or look down on him for “not keeping the Sabbath Day”?
The Word is the plumb line, not Whitfield.
Acts 15:20-32 (King James Version)
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
And there are also many sins difficult to see or measure, as Paul says the “sins of the spirit”. And if we desire to hold to a strict outward standard, then these come into play:
Are you overweight?
Do you or your church borrow money from the world?
Are you saving up money for yourself on earth?
Do your women wear skirts that expose the calf?
Do you practice bith control?
All these things and many more would be added to the list of things Whitefield and others would consider sinful, not to mention the things God’s Word delineates such as not having love, patience, mercy, gentleness, and the worst sin of all - pride.
How will we wrestle with this one?
How could we..why would we? It is very clear.
Remember: NO MAN, famous, godly, well liked, important titles etc.
Colossians 2:15-17 (King James Version)
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
REJOICE in the finished work of the only Worthy One! Be free to not walk in the power of sin and not free to trample the Holy Spirit’s work of grace! FREE! NOT CHEAP! FREE! Get it into your whole mind body and His Spirit…YOUR FREE, unless you began in faith and end in flesh.
Thanks for the very thought provoking and convicting post.
It’s disturbing how quickly we become desensitized to sin. Try going a few months without tv or movies and you will soon realize the kind of garbage that you have become accustomed to.
Comparing our culture to Whitfield’s era doesn’t make me wonder if he was too legalistic in the least.
Well I had a really great response(if I do say so myself) all typed up yesterday, and lost it- so I will just keep this one short.
Whitefield et.al does not decide what is sin for me, the Bible does.
I still have not seen anyone say that movies,books,games, persay are sinful, so why should I feel convicted? It depends on the movie I watch, the book I read, and the games I play, and how much of my life is devoted to them, but no one has said that(why not is beyond me). but we could make the same argument for many things- clothes, jobs,relationships,etc. We can make an idol out of anything- but that doesn’t make the thing bad, just our wicked hearts- but no one has said that either.
The “saints of old” are not the arbiters of right and wrong in my life-that is looking in the wrong direction. They are not infallible, and we should not cannonize everything they say.
Jodi
“Sabbath-breaker? The majority of Christians now days do not see this as a sin, much less as something that evidenced an unregenerate heart.” Obviously, it would be silly and irresponsible to say that Christians who don’t literally observe the Sabbath are unregenerate. I’m not sure really what you’re saying.
Theater-goer? Who isn’t now days, believer or unbeliever? I don’t watch movies or tv or read Harry Potter/Lord of the Rings etc because I have Scripture to back me up on not putting anything evil before my eyes, but some regenerate-literal-Sabbath-keepers don’t find it a sin
“Card-player? Do video games, sporting events, and hobbies count the same? From his words, I believe so, for no mention is made of gambling.” Obviously, it’s important to not make up man-made laws that have “an apperance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh”. Are the hobbies in which you engage evil in nature? Is painting trees and sunsets evil? No, and there is nothing wrong with that. Is painting dark, evil scenes evil? Yes, and one should stay away from that. God gave us His Word to tell us what is evil and not evil and what to stay away from. You start making man-made laws then you have just taken God’s place and told Him He wasn’t smart enough to know that all hobbies etc are wrong. Our forefathers were much more righteous than I am but they were not without error…the Bible should always be our guide since we tend to swing from one extreme to the other.
attention…you will loose your writing (happened to me twice already) for not putting in the code first.
Stringent rules captured within a cultural setting are not New Testament. As Sarah has mentioned, there aremany things that are sin not because they depart from Whitefield’s era but because the Bible shows us their evil.
But the Sabbath breaking example is irrelevant. And we still need to examine ourselves not with any comparison to others, but with the mirror of the Word. If you go back to Whitefield then you must eat the entire cake.
Women did not work outside the home.
Women did not rebuke ordained pastors.
They did not pile up 401k for retirement.
Preachers salaries usually did not totally meet their needs, they had to live by faith.
If we are going back let’s be pervasive.
Last time I checked grace WAS free. Did the bible change?
Well said Jodi!
Grace is free.
But, lets be honest….who is more pleasing to God as far as being a person that glorifies Christ more…the person who has family devotion after supper every night, or the person who’s family seperates into different rooms to watch tv after supper every night?
Who glorifies Christ more….the person who can quote scripture when a problem arises because they have taken time to be in God’s Word, or the person who is JUST as saved, but spends time in playing cards or reading non-chrisitan novels and cannot quote scripture in time of need?
I think the whole point is NOT that a person is somehow…’less saved’ because they are frivolous with their time, but that once upon a time in Christian circles there was a higher bar set for what was looked upon as Christian living, or standards.
I find it interesting how several of you are taking such a great offense to Whitefield’s words. Personally, I don’t think any of the negative responses so far have been thought through in any great detail. I would encourage all to not be so reactionary, and to deeply consider his words, maybe even checking out the original context before drawing such harsh conclusions! If you were familiar with Whitefield the man, I assure you, works-based salvation, legalism, going beyond the bounds of scripture, etc., would be the very furthest thing from your mind.
Let me again try to make *the point* of my post clear:
-I did not write this post to condemn card-playing, theater-going, novel-reading, etc.
-Whitefield, in his words, was not condemning the things above either. He was describing *his* life and *his* heart, not the practices of others.
-Neither Whitefield nor myself places opinions of men above the revelation of scripture.
My point:
-Whitefield had a keen awareness of his own sin and own heart, which seems to be missing from so many Christians today because we are so quick to defend our *liberty* and our *rights* to live as we ought.
-Whether you admit it or not: the *standard* of Christian living has drastically changed over the years. I posted this article because I question this change and whether it is justified; I did not intend to specifically discuss *what* has changed and if the specific changes were congruent with scripture.
My point was to pull out the self righteous rug from under all of us. Since the Industrial Revelotion, we all have become distinct compromisers when compared with Whitefield’s generation. And now we think nothing of spending thousands of dollars on vacations, eating out, sight seeing trips, and the ever popular “Christian cruise”.
Compare the cruises that Warren, Hybels, and yes even MacArthur sponser with what John Wesley knew as a Christian cruise.
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2007/01/christian-cruise-bout-thirty-years-ago.html
I agree Colleen! Once we have been saved by grace we are called to become more and more like Christ. It is something that will take our lifetime and we will always fall short. Once again though God’s grace is new every morning and its not a free one time gift, its a free every time gift. My comment was taking to task a misrepresentation and generalization of what some broadly categorize as “seeker sensitive” churches and their “lack” of understanding about what to means to sin.
I don’t think the bar was higher in the past as it is now. The bar has always been in the same position, out of our reach unless we have Jesus. The issue is that society has changed and society has lowered its bar.
Quoting scripture does not equate to living in the word. Watching movies or reading fiction does not equate to living of the world. The real question is what does it mean to be in this world but not of this world?
Once again I say that Jodi hit it spot on with:
“I still have not seen anyone say that movies,books,games, persay are sinful, so why should I feel convicted? It depends on the movie I watch, the book I read, and the games I play, and how much of my life is devoted to them, but no one has said that(why not is beyond me). but we could make the same argument for many things- clothes, jobs,relationships,etc. We can make an idol out of anything- but that doesn’t make the thing bad, just our wicked hearts- but no one has said that either.
The “saints of old” are not the arbiters of right and wrong in my life-that is looking in the wrong direction. They are not infallible, and we should not cannonize everything they say.”
And even then watching an R rated movie for instance does in no way mean that Christians have lost sight of what sin is. Or that the bar has been lowered. To me it means that despite the violence, sex and/or language of the film there are still potentially many God honoring principles and qualities about the film that should not be dismissed. We can still worship God by honoring creativity and the positives about the film while not condoning the negative. If we have to not involve ourselves in a place where sin is present then we are all completely lost because we would have to remove ourselves from this world and ourselves entirely.
Chris said…
“And even then watching an R rated movie for instance does in no way mean that Christians have lost sight of what sin is. Or that the bar has been lowered. To me it means that despite the violence, sex and/or language of the film there are still potentially many God honoring principles and qualities about the film that should not be dismissed. We can still worship God by honoring creativity and the positives about the film while not condoning the negative.”
Chris, can you give an example of one of these “God honoring” films which contain violence, sex, and language?
Can we also “worship God by honoring creativity and the positives” in an adult film?
Philippians 4:8-9 comes to mind:
“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.”
If one is watching TV and something comes on that is of a fleshly nature or crass, does your heart grieve over it enough to change the channel even if you are in the middle of the show? Do we truly grieve as we ought, knowing that our sin and the sins of others grieve our Father? I wonder how many times we have seen something or done something that is sinful, yet did not feel conviction or did feel convicted but said, “Oh well.”? There are things we should do and should avoid according to Scriptures so are we truly concerned with having a clean conscience? That does require avoiding looking at and hearing things for once those things are in the conscience they are hard to be rid of. How many reading this are humming or singing a commercial’s song?And at the risk of readers’ groans I will say, “Junk in, junk out!”
“If one is watching TV and something comes on that is of a fleshly nature or crass,”
Sherry I agree with your premise, however I would expand your statement to say “When you are watching TV it is almost always fleshly and crass!” The nickel in a spittoon really fits there!
So my point is that Whitefield would preach against owning a TV.
Amen Rick! Even as I wrote that I nearly crushed the remote in my anger to shut the blasted thing off! Sadly, our Christian medias are no better. I can’t stand it when a commercial’s jingle is in my head when I want songs of praise there. Our entertainments do matter. When I cleaned house for an elderly couple they would have this one soap opera on at lunch time. I got caught up in it. When I became a Christian I caught myself praying for the characters! That was the end of that soap! Just a humorous true story. We must not underestimate the influences of our free time activities.
There are so many great films that showcase Gods gifts to people as well as help us understand our society, ourselves and our place in the world and our relationship to God.
It seems like it serves no purpose trying to agree on which movies do this or not. Some honor God in many ways, some honor God in no way. I don’t think the rating has anything to do with it. Pornography crosses the line as its no longer an artistic expression that honors God in any way! Pornography serves only lust.
The real issue IMO is what role does art fit it to the Christian life? Personally I see it both as creativity, talents and gifts that God created and mans sinful nature wrapped up together. Art and creativity like everything else God created fell along with humanity in the Garden. I believe that God will restore this along with the rest of the universe when the time comes.
So sin is the same as it was now as it was then. Lust is lust, pride is pride and idolatry is idolatry. Is it harder for us than the great Christians of the past? No its exactly the same. Are their people in the past who live a better Christian life than we do? Yes. Are their people in the modern world who live a better Christian life than we do? You bet!
Does this mean we cannot see, appreciate and learn from fallen creativity? IMO no! If that were the case we could appreciate and learn from nothing of this life. Does this mean that we bombard ourselves with sinful things? Of course not! Does this mean that we do not grieve to see mans fallen state? Of course not!
And upon further thought societies bar has not lowered, its always been low. The bible is full of sinful people, cities and countries. No better or no worse that what we experience. The difference is that today in the information age we have all too easy access to sinful things. It would be great to be able to divorce ourselves completely from society but thats not Gods plan. If it were once we were saved we would be whisked away. So God must want us to be here and a part of society for evangelistic purposes.
We cannot escape sin but the better we understand how it works in this world the better we can carry out our commission and become more and more like Christ in the process!
To be fair their is always a danger that sin can take control. We are just not strong enough, but God is. And so while I believe there is no problem with seeing a R rated film, I would be foolish to believe that the film does not have the potential to cause me to sin. Which makes all the more important the spiritual disciplines of prayer, fasting, bible reading, being part of a Christian church that can provide accountability and fellowship and always putting God first.
The beauty of Whitefield’s statement is that he knew what his sins were. That’s the lesson we always need to be aware of. unfortunately some people miss the lesson and revert back to their critical natures and immediately go on the attack. Truly a tragedy!
Nathan wrote “it is always a sin to (fill in the blank), or it is never a sin to (fill in the blank)… many godly men had a keener, deeper sense of their own sin, and were not swept away by the extremes of fundamentalism or the shallowness of claiming the scriptural ‘right’ to do such and such.”
Unfortunately we began to see this dichotomy played out in this comment section! Amazing how peoples personal agenda so easily distracts us from a great truth.
Not owning a TV isn’t so silly. We (my wife and I) realised we didn’t have the self control needed to abstract ourselves from it so we sold it. Haven’t looked back!
I agree with you Dave. My wife and I have been without a tv for several months now, and honestly, I don’t know how we ever had time to watch it as much as we did.
Interesting topic. I wanted to remind Chris of the question posed by Blackbaron:
I must wonder how much trash one must bury themselves in to find small nuggets of “creativity” given by God?
Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
No need to remind me I did respond. I have a hard time believing that its necessary to list specific ones but if you want me to I will.
The obvious ones:
Passion of the Christ
Schindlers List
If you are not comfortable watching R rated movies then you should not. But to make generalizations about all R rated movies or about art and creativity is the height of hubris.
Hey Chris,
You said,
Ahh the age of information when I can get a notice as soon as someone responds…
Blackbaron - I am sorry that you cannot see Gods beauty or creativity in things that the world creates, including R rated movies. If you don’t watch them how do you know? If you do then I encourage you to look beyond the sin, there are many parts in almost every movie that God is visible. I hope you are able to discover them.
As I said before if anyone is not comfortable watching them thats their choice and I respect it! What I have no respect for is blanket generalizations based on circumstantial evidence by people who are relying only on second hand information. There is a serious lack of critical process that is rampant in this world, including the Christian community. We should know better!
Hubris is also defined as overbearing pride or presumption which fits perfectly in my statement but thanks for another definition! I mean really who is qualified to say something has no value?
Chris,
You wrote,”…there are many parts in almost every movie that God is visible..”
That is a huge leap of imagination. That is like saying, “in every concentration camp God is visible.”
God’s CREATION (in their HUGE state of falleness) is visible because we have eyes to see it. Don’t atribute the deeds (movie making) of man to GOD!
Movies, concentration camps, merry go rounds, whore houses, local parks are a making of man and God isn’t visible in those. His creation is…working overtime in it’s sin filled desires, that is what is visible. God is visible in His Holy Word…that is an INSPIRED work of man.
All that in love. Seriously.
Love of course!
No leap for me! I see Gods creativity and beauty shine through almost all art DESPITE man! I in no way attribute it to man but in despite of man!
Really do you doubt that there were beautiful acts of compassion and love in concentration camps? Or the artistry of the craftsman who carved the merry go round horses? Or the ability of man to sculpt a beautiful park? (I’ll give you the whorehouses. )
If you see those things do you not attribute them to God and do you not appreciate them?
Think on this: (my emphasis in bold)
Romans 1: 28-32
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, INVENTORS OF EVIL THINGS, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that THEY which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, BUT HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM.
Lost “Hollywood” invents most movies today that glorify all of the above, they have turned it into an ‘ART FORM’ and you see GOD in it? You also seem to take pleasure in those who invent such things, while supporting them directly (with ticket sales) in there sinful lifestyles while thanking GOD for your daily provision you pay them to see the ilk they call art, and you call GOD.
WOW.
Well what can I say? Obviously you are not understanding me.
You are so eager to condemn (some points rightfully so I might add) that you have blinded yourself to a God who can transcend evil and shine brightly. Are you saying that God cannot be present in human art? If so I get what you are trying to say then but completely disagree with you.
If you are trying to say something else then I think you need to be more clear in what it is.
No, I haven’t condemned you nor do I desire to. I am not ‘eager’ to condemn you. I am no more eager to do that than I think you are ‘eager’ to sin against God. I think you have misplaced what ‘appears’ good to the eyes as something that is godly or God in it. ONLY the work and fruit of the HOLY SPIRIT that happens through HIS blood bought children have anything of GOD in them. Hollywood in mass and general is VOID of His Holy Spirit. Their ‘works’ are a glory to man from man (sinful) and it’s insatiable appetite for sin. God isn’t in them. His fruit is born out of His Children ALONE, by HIS Grace alone.
Peace to you in His Spirit.
NO GOD ISN’T PRESENT IN ANY HUMAN HEART EXCEPT THE BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE. THE REST ARE WITHOUT GOD. PERIOD.
Why does one have to watch the movie The Passion of the Christ, paying to keep Hollywood in business and supporting the ungodly? Just open your Bible. It’s free and you won’t subject yourself to any unnecessary licence. Schindler’s List was a good movie but I haven’t watched it in years (maybe I’ll dig it out) and can’t remember if it had anything more than the awfulness of inhumanity. That might be edifying. There is the Titanic, but who wants to sit through the first 5 minutes of God’s Name being blasphemed (ugh! I couldn’t!) in order to get to the good sermon it may contain? History books are great reads for that kind of stuff. Now, Chris, what would you say to the churches that are using the video game Halo 3 to reach teens in coming to church and using it to preach the Gospel? In case one doesn’t know, this is a violent, M-rated video game that has parents upset with youth pastors because it isn’t for those kids under 17 - and it is extremely violent.
Hey Chris,
Hope this doesn’t add to your agitation:-)
You said,
Well, I didn’t make any “blanket generalizations”. I’m not saying that all R rated movies are evil, although most are preety bad. I’ve seen plenty of God dis-honoring crud on the “silver screen” with my own two eyes. No need for second hand information from this kid.
I like movies, but the longer I live, the harder it is for me to justify watching something that my conscience and God’s Word tells me I shouldn’t be enjoying.
I am also honestly confused by your encouragement to
We are not called to “look beyond the sin” Ephesians 5:8-12 says
Also, I would ask you to prayerfully consider Paul’s words to Timothy in 2 Timothy 22-26:
Sin is a snare. I agree with Sherry C. Sure, there might be something of value buried in the middle of a movie which is full of sex, violence, and language, but do we as believers really need to wade through the sewer to get our hands on this gem?
I’ll look to Philippians 4:19-20 for the answer,
That’s it for me,
Grace and peace to you Chris
Hi Sherry and BlackBaron. In response to your questions I would say yes Halo3 can be used as well as wading through an R rated depending on who you are trying to minister to.
“able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”
To effectively do this we need to have knowledge and understanding about where they are, what they are exposed to, and how to reach them and art and culture touches everyone, so if we are to be effective evangelizers? we must have a better understanding about who we are evangelizing. This means understanding and not dismissing art and culture.
I appreciate all your comments but it looks like we will have to ultimately disagree on this issue.
An “effective evangelizer” is a person ‘gifted’ with the gift of evangelism by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn’t need help from Hollywood to reach the lost. The ‘evangelist’ needs to be in prayer, the Word of God, and ready to obey. Why would we need to evangelize the lost if they have a bit o’ god in their hearts Chris? Can you show me a passage from anywhere in the Bible where lost people have some of “God in their heart”? Don’t search…it isn’t in there. That is a NEW AGE teaching along with the other false teachings that have been entering into the so-called “church” lately. The Acts Church (men and women with the indwelling Holy Spirit) continued stedfastly in the apostles teaching…we tend to be told now the Holy Spirit needs help with our culture. WOW.
I usually make it a policy not to respond to people who yell, drive by verse you or otherwise claim to have a discernment about what God/Holy Spirit can or can not use. Once again hubris!
On second thought its a good policy. I pray that God uses you “rg” and opens your eyes to the fact that you cannot put a limitation on what God can do.
God bless you!
Chris, I think you have a pattern in your life of walking away from the harder questions that might lead you to the truth. Playing Halo3, watching Hollywood and ‘being relevant’ is trendy..it always has a pleasure for a season. The enemy always puts a new dress on an old whore and strings some lights around and attracts a crowd. At first, from a distance it seems good to the eyes, and good to the mind, and good to the wicked heart…then as you get close…you will see him, but it will be too late.
Stick in there Chris…answer some questions from scripture that backs up what you say or ask me to..don’t cut and run..break the tradition of your youth.
Chris, when you read and study the Word of God you know that He limits Himself on what He will or will not do. God is not unknowable in that respect. Can we take what is unholy and make it holy? Can we take what is unclean and make it clean? No. Whatever is holy that is touched by the unholy becomes unholy. Whatever is clean that is touched by the unclean becomes unclean. The verse you quoted says we are to endure evil, not invite it in to perchance reveal the godliness of it so that some will repent because of it. Patiently teaching here is concerning false doctrine being promoted as truth. I fail to see where you can stand on that verse in the use of a violent video game meant for those over the age of 17 in a youth ministry! How does that keep one unspotted from the world by using the world’s goods? These games are being brought into the church-it isn’t just being talked about ! it is for the purpose of bringing the teens (under 17, mind you) into the church. Bait and switch, anyone? There are purer means to evangelize than this. And it is only by God’s Word preached that conviction comes and saves. Why would the Holy Spirit allow the use of a video game such as this? No, the Holy Spirit does not go beyond or contradict God’s Word in His administration.
Unfortunately “rg” you keep making assumptions which frankly points to the lack of critical process that you are involved in, and a lack of discernment as well. I will pray for continued revelation for both of us.
I am not cutting and running! I don’t believe this conversation, if continued will glorify God. All we will end up doing is criticizing each other. Take the plank out of your own eye before you even begin to start criticizing churches or their methods. Imagine if everyone did that how pleased God will be.
On judgment day our sinful nature will be completely exposed and the fruit we produced will be celebrated. If someone brings just one young person to Christ because of Halo3 or a movie or other artistic illustration, it will be celebrated. If you want to limit God and criticize other believers than it will be something to answer to.
Romans 14
Thats it folks I am done. If some of you want to blog all day criticizing brothers and sisters I guarantee there will be a price to pay. I hope you realize it before its too late.
dear Chris,
You have been taught wrong. The ends don’t justify the means.
God isn’t needy and hopes that you will bring out Halo3 to help him save someone. Maybe if we blow up a school building the police chaplin will get an opportunity to help God save someone! In all the parent grief, God will NOW be able to do a work of the Holy Spirit.
Chris…God doesn’t need Hollywoood helpers and gamers to win some for Christ. He has His chosen method, it doesn’t include your game cube. The preaching of the Gospel is what will lead men to be able to hear His call. God saves..men preach the good news of that salvation from sin, not with sin. “Truth sounds harsh to those who have no tendency to obey it.” You do cut and run with the oldest but most immature use of “criticizing brothers…price to be paid” threat. Grow up Chris and learn from the truth rather than cutting and running.
How sad that you actually proved my point!
I will be praying for you!
Chris wrote, “If someone brings just one young person to Christ because of Halo3 or a movie or other artistic illustration, it will be celebrated.”
God will be celebrated for saving us Chris, not men and “because of Halo3″.
Grieved in your thinking. God is needy of us Chris?
You won’t be “praying for” me Chris, that is just your pride speaking and writing. watch out that you don’t lie about all those “God bless you!” and “I’ll be praying for you’s” Chris.
Chris,
Now I think I get what you have been saying all along. You don’t actually enjoy movies filled with “sex, violence, and language”, you’re just “wading through” in order to become a better evangilist. Good for you.
And about Romans 14, don’t worry, no one here is going to judge you about what you eat or what you drink, or if you keep the sabbath.
A better “drive by” verse is Philippians 3:18-19:
I would hope that you and I would be more aware of the sin that surrounds us. Also I hope that we listen as George Whitfield reminds us of our “serious obligation to redeem spare time.”
P.S. I may name my new puppy “Hubris”
Chris, you have made clearer some of Nathan’s points that he made in this post. Thank you.