Nathan, as I was reading this post, I also thought of something else. Not only do the members help others when they excercise their gift, but they also strengthen themselves. I mean, anytime a Christian uses and exercises his gift, it will improve his own gift and spiritual maturity.

So my question is, why do you think churches (even reformed) aren’t doing this today, seeing it is so clear from Scriptures?

” 1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. 3 Indeed,[a] we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body.” James 3:1-3

And of course 1 Corinthians 14

34 Let your[d] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

I believe in light of the first passage that if we allowed “all” to lead in worship in some form, it would need to be very carefully “managed” to ensure edification.

I just cannot get around the second text as prohibiting almost all public speaking of women (public repentance being an obvious exception), I know some people believe this merely prohibits authoritative speaking but I don’t buy that, the clear meaning is that it is shameful for a woman to speak in church (under most circumstance).

I would also be concerned that completely opening things up would somewhat erode the privileges of church membership, perhaps you are thinking of restricting it to the members only in which case this doesn’t count. I would favour nominated participation where the eldership nominate which man will pray etc.

I have found to my cost that there are people around who are pushy enough even when visiting a church to be very verbose and one experience I had the gentleman spoke error in our midst, this was just a Sunday School class, but I highlight it to show that there are dangers.

My opinion is that the vast majority of 1 Cor 12-14 is to do with those gifts which have ceased, the obvious exceptions being helps and administration, how does one administrate during worship? Lifting the offering? Perhaps. Helps? Specifically during worship…I don’t know how this would work. I’m open to suggestions but I think the common practice of churches is so because this the wisest course.

I suppose at the minute I’m not convinced these all are to be understood as being exercised within corporate worship….maybe you can convince me Nathan
JP

I believe fear is the answer here. From my experience, some leaders fear public prayer as if someone will say the wrong thing. Much more for public exhortation. Add to this that they see themselves as the only ‘qualified’ spokesmen for God, and well, dictatorship rules.

As Pastor Jerry said last night, you can’t stop people from going to the throne of grace; they have free access through Christ –they do not need to go through an earthly mediator. Stifling public, corporate prayer is tantamount to extinguishing the spirit of the church.

Tradition sometimes reigns supreme; I think we need to take a long look at why so many reformed churches are ‘dead’ in regards to zeal, passion, and worship. This area, I believe, is a good place to start.

Thank you for your comments, as they will give me a chance to clarify a little.

First, in regards to your quotation of James, consider what ‘teaching’ actually is. I’m teaching on this blog. I teach my wife every single day. I teach when I witness to an unbeliever. The office of teaching (eldership), I believe, is what James is specifically referring to. Does that mean that those who are not elders can never teach, anytime or anywhere? No, it does not, otherwise, I need to pack this blog up and let my wife/children learn from someone else.

Secondly, I’m not talking about just anyone leading the service, of course not; I’m talking about practicing clear principles of 1 Cor 12-14 in letting a variety of people with a variety of gifts participate in the service.

Next, if you Paul is warning women against publicly speaking in church, do you allow them to sing? In addition, why does Paul mention women praying and prophesying in 1 Cor 11? Seems to me that the context of 1 Cor 14 is clearly referring to teaching/authority, as he also states elsewhere.

Lastly, the principle of prophesy teaches us to let 2 or 3 speak and let the others weigh what is said. Thus, if someone does teach something erroneous, he is to be corrected in front of all.

Consider those few points and let me know what you think. I admit, my consideration of this text/principle is fairly new, and probably needs some refinement

SDG

I’m not sure I would limit James as referring to the office of elder, for the very reason you say all, of us teach in many areas of life and at many times, however I’d agree that the main context is the eldership, and at the very least the public worship is in view. But surely an explanation of a text etc. would be teaching de facto, whether the person was an elder or not, that not many should publicly speak and would therefore warrant a carefulness in who does and who does not speak in the public worship services of the church, I would not allow an untrained one to take that huge responsibility for their own sake as well as the church’s.

With regard to 1 Cor 12-14 which specific gifts are you referring to and how do you think they can be practised in the public worship? Again I think most of these have ceased in general as they refer to tongues, prophecy and the interpretation of same.

With regard to the silence of women, as I said it is not absolute silence, but I have yet to find any explanation of this text that is clearer than B.B Warfield’s treatment …this text is the clearest text on the subject and all other texts must be interpreted in light of it, not the other way around (I include the 1 Cor 11 you cite). The speech which is prohibited even extends to asking questions.

Since prophecy has ceased (in my opinion) I’m not sure we need to be too concerned about this application at present.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t buy the whole clergy concept, but I do think any public speech and teaching must be under the oversight of the ordained eldership of the church, in our church, all men may freely pray in the prayer meetings and at our male members at the Lord’s Supper, likewise young men perhaps aspiring to the eldership are allowed to lead and preach…but to open up the floor as far as I know has only ever been practiced by the Plymouth Brethren and at the risk of getting into big trouble the outcome has been anything but good.

I think the lack of zeal etc. you mention is a big problem, but I don’t think the cure is more audience participation but in better preparation.

Don Whitney frequently says that the most worshipful aspect of worship is the listening…to the Word read and preached, isn’t worship all about basking in the wisdom and presence of the Lord as much as or more than participating? The greatest reverence that can be shown to someone is to close our mouth and listen to them.

JP

Regarding your comments on the James passage, I would generally agree with you. However, whoever or whenever the warning is directed is irrelevant to this subject, in my opinion. Certainly we should all deeply consider this warning (even us bloggers!), including anyone who desires to exhort the fellowship during a worship service.

You said: I would not allow an untrained one to take that huge responsibility for their own sake as well as the church’s.

Again, I generally agree. But I do not think that this warrants us prohibiting everyone except the pastor from speaking in church. In 1 Cor 12, Paul begins by saying that “no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!”. Clearly, if EVER there was a time to shut people up, it would be when they are saying such heretical things as this. However, Paul just gives them basic instructions which fall short of everyone keeping silent, and later says that the ‘others’ are to weigh what is said.

You said: With regard to 1 Cor 12-14 which specific gifts are you referring to and how do you think they can be practised in the public worship? Again I think most of these have ceased in general as they refer to tongues, prophecy and the interpretation of same.

I agree in that tongues, prophecy, and interpretation has ceased. But I do not believe that the principles found within the practice of these gifts is not applicable for us today. Generally, people are quick to point out that the verse ‘all things be done decently and in order’ is well applicable to us today, but then they turn around and say that other principles found in the same context are not applicable because the certain gifts have ceased from their early church form? I think the gift of prophecy back then is much like the gift of teaching/exhortation today.

You said: The speech which is prohibited even extends to asking questions. (referring to women)

I agree that women asking questions is prohibited given that this would display a lack of trust/confidence in the leadership of the husband. Likewise with teaching. However, I do not believe that prayer or the giving of testimony is prohibited. Davide pointed out to me privately that women are seen praying all through the book of Acts, and I would agree. Plus, singing is simply a form of praying as well (and testimony).

I find it curious that all men can pray at the prayer meeting of your church, but not in the main worship service? Corporate prayer, I believe, is deeply rooted in the early church examples we see in Acts.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m not advocating a Plymouth Brethren type of atmosphere. At the church I am attending, we read one NT chapter of scripture in the morning and one OT chapter of scripture in the evening, near the beginning of the service (before the sermon which is on another text), as our public reading of scripture. Upon this reading, “two or three” men are invited to give a *brief* teaching/exhortation. The elders, of course, overseeing and correcting what is said. Generally this lasts no more than a few minutes, as its usually more of a ‘this verse particularly struck me in this way today’, etc.

You said: I think the lack of zeal etc. you mention is a big problem, but I don’t think the cure is more audience participation but in better preparation.

Let me be clear in that I am a cessationist, and I do not subscribe to the willy-nilly, emotional, mystical view of the Spirit that even many reformed brothers fall into. However, spontaneity was a clear aspect of the early church, per 1 Cor 12-14. This spontaneity, I believe, is missing today. No, the Spirit no longer gives men instant ‘words of knowledge’ or looseness of tongues, but I do believe that there is an element of spontaneity in worship, i.e. spontaneous joy, adoration, etc., that is lost when everybody sits around and watches one or two men run the show week after week. I don’t necessarily believe that allowing spontaneity opens the door up to the Spirit, for I do not believe the Spirit works in the direct manner like He did before. But spontaneity in worship, the spirit and zeal of the church, is a missing element in today’s churches, so I believe.

SDG

We’ll have to disagree on the women, which is not a problem, it’s not a hill I’d die on, (though I would add into the mix 1 Tim 2:8 aner in the Greek regarding prayer) and certainly not one that would cause me to break fellowship with a church or people or individual, I’ve been at many prayer meetings with women praying and it causes me no offence as such. Do give old Warfield a read though if you haven’t already .

I still think there are potential problems with men giving exhortations in the way you describe, maybe in the church you’re referring to they come prepared to do it (i.e pre-arranged text etc.)…I just think it would be dangerous sometimes even for me to speak off the cuff! What if they do go off the rails? would a correction not cause a bit of coldness? I don’t know probably something I would need to think more about. Thanks for raising it.

By the way in our adult SS class all may take part, which is very edifying and profitable for all, so this is a good place to exercise gifts and I may add a good place for the pastor to identify promising men for office!

I think at the least we agree on the core problem….and it’s good to think through these things. I would say and I’m sure you would agree that the Spirit also works powerfully in extremely ordered situations. I can remember reading an article by Mark Dever regarding planning preaching programmes years ahead and finding them exactly suited to the situation that ensured (I think the precise example was 9/11), my point is that while I accept the profits of spontaneity I would also say that the Spirit can be equally powerful and at work when ministry is seriously and prayerfully planned.

JP