http://www.mctsowensboro.org/blog/

His discussion and argument are very persuasive. Yet, given that, I’m not entirely sure how to change my activities to be in line with it. Anyway, I’ll be thinking more about it later.

SDG,
dbh

Vos, ironically, lived @ the time of the 20th century apostasy in Northern Presbyterians. He was a Sabbatarian, but ironically, he couldn’t find a church at which he could worship regularly; or so the story goes.

I’m not sure what Vos meant by propaganda but it doesn’t sound like what the Westminster Divines had in mind

Question 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s Day to be sanctified?
Answer. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.

Larger Catechism

JP

I think if you had asked him Ryle would have said any breaking of the 10C’s would have been but a flight of stairs from Godlessness. If you love me keep my commandments Christ says, and the Sabbath is no different. Lawlessness is sin and sin is a setting aside of God’s authority.

JP

I think you joined RBDList just after a big discussion on this issue. I too am thankful for Barcellos’ writings on this; thanks for posting it here.

I do agree with this. However, having read a very large amount of Ryle’s material, I would say that the Sabbath issue was a particularly serious thing to him (as it should be). That is, I believe that he spoke much about the Sabbath because the other commands are somewhat easy to obey on the outside, or in appearance. There are many lost men, very moral, who obey the commandment against adultery, but the Sabbath is more of a heart issue.

Or, in better words, since there are so many people -in this age and in Ryle’s day- who have an outward form of religion, that is, they profess to know God, they live in outward obedience to His law, they somewhat attend a place of worship, etc., but in truth they are deceived and are not joined with Christ, that the Sabbath command particularly exposes such unbelief. Obedience to the Sabbath is like the essance of true worship, from what I gather from Ryle, and nothing else so clearly exposes the sheep from the goats than disobedience in this area.

And before anyone jump on me for this, please note a few things:
-This is what I gather from Ryle’s teaching,
-I have yet to present any real argument for or against the Sabbath,
-and for the most part, I believe most believers do obey the Sabbath with regularity, even if they deny so with their lips.

SDG

You are correct in stating that this is an issue regarding the heart, but honestly so is every other commandment:). I think when you read someone like the writings of Stonewall Jackson you find a man who took the first day of the week very seriously and found great delight in doing so. We must remember that the commands are not burdensome to the children of God, but rather are “easy” and “light” because obedience to God comes from a heart of love, not from being coerced.

Ah yes, the emails. Gordan is in my crosshairs here (not really, brother!)

You said: Certainly the command is not done away with and when one wants to use the “Lord’s Day”, and then try to define that apart from Scripture to me that is a problem.

What do you mean by that, Tim? Do you mean to say that calling Sunday the Lord’s Day is wrong, or just MacArthur’s use of calling Sunday the Lord’s Day while holding that the Sabbath has been abolished?

I keep the Sabbath.

I mean the latter:) MacArthur claims abolishment of the Sabbath, then seeks to move men to gather on the Lord’s Day. I ask by what command? Honestly he practices better than he preaches, in my opinion. But in either case we one must derive their view of the Lord’s Day in light of the command concerning the Sabbath.

Also, anyone who thinks the Sabbath ever meant boring slavish adherence to the law has never really looked at the instruction concerning the Sabbath. It was given to man as a command and as a gift…….. hmmmmm sounds like the gospel (both a command and a gift). It was to refresh man physically and spiritually. He was to not seek his own desires, but to reflect upon what His Creator Had done for Him and give Him glory.

One that comes to mind is in the 23rd chapter of Leviticus.

1 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Following that are the feasts of the Lord as well. These holy convocations (or sacred assemblies) are declared by the Lord for His people to attend and obey. That’s the first one off the top of my head I can think of.

Maybe you’ve heard of the 4th commandment: keep the sabbath holy.

What does holy mean?

Nathan, what? you wanna piece o’ me, big guy? I guess I deserve it, departing from the LBCF reservation on this one like I do. (The noyve a dat guy!)

A big LOL. Brother, it sort of ended abruptly for all of us. And no we are not gloating here at all, at least not on my part. I think we talked about you behind your back, but it wasn’t anything that you and I hadn’t discussed anyway, so technically it wasn’t behind your back:) YOu know I’m kidding. I am open to listening more to the discussion, as you know, I think it is healthy. I probably lean more towards Nathan’s view, though not the way some reformed folks do and thus become pharasaical, and I can see certain passages where the things you espouse do seem to bleed through concerning Christ. I make the attempt to practice the fourth commandment in relation to the Lord’s Day, but mainly come down to about 3 things that seem clear to me in regards to the observance of that day and those are in relation to the commands concerning the Sabbath and for me, whether a weaker brother or not, it is my conscience that is bound to that.

BTW, I’m selling the tickets for this pay-per-view event………lol, In this corner……….and let’s get ready to rrrrrrruuuuuuuummmmmbbbbllllleeee!

I’ll be interested in what you write.

Re: your comments about MacArthur and what possible impetus can he find in Scripture for urging believers to assemble on Sunday (since he believes the 4th Commandment is put out of place.)

I would submit that the impetus is exactly the same as the one you would use to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. The practice of the church in the New Testament.

You have no problem asserting there’s enough evidence there for you to change the day from one to another, but not enough to encourage Christian “convocation” on a day?

Gordan, I hope you don’t think that I’m going to deal with the Sabbath question and yet fail to deal with the issue of Saturday vs. Sunday. To suggest that Sabbatarians don’t have a scriptural answer for this is quite naive.

Lest I post my post here, I will simply leave you with a question to ponder, and we’ll hash it out later:

-Where is the Sabbath specifically spelled out as being on Saturday? That is, where does the OT outline the Sabbath as specifically the seventh day of the week? Surely Saturday is in there somewhere, right??

From Exodus 20, your belief that the Sabbath was specifically the 7th day OF THE WEEK certainly isn’t found:

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.”

I think you might misunderstand my comments. I don’t have problem encouraging that. I just am careful about what I think the Sabbath teaches concerning dos and don’ts. I don’t make out a huge list of things. I think there are 2 or 3 primary things the Scriptures teach concerning that. I would encourage convocations on the Lord’s Day.

I understand your position, I think, and am glad you approach it as charitably as you do. I know you encourage “convocating” on the Lord’s Day, as do I. I know you think that to willfully neglect that convocation is a sin, as do I.

Nathan,

I admit that in my ignorance I am sitting here dumbfounded. I may have misunderstood you, but it looks like you’ve promised to show that Saturday is not the day of the original OT Sabbath.

Well, all righty then! I’ll have Tim pass me some o’ dat popcorn and wait anxiously for that post.

I didn’t mean to suggest that Sabbatarians have no Scriptural argument for changing the day to Sunday. I am naive, but not that much. I meant to suggest that particular bit of Scriptural evidence is very weak. There’s a difference between gathering on a day as a regular practice, and claiming that day is a new Sabbath.

Sabbatarianism can become an implicit denial of the redemptive work of Christ, is my only problem with it.

LOL, are you sure that popcorn falls under the OT diet restrictions?

Actually, Gordan, you seem to be hinting that the NT does not give a clear indication that Sunday is the Sabbath. Well, just to make things even here, I am just asking you to point out where in God’s law that the Sabbath is specifically described as Saturday, or the 7th day OF THE WEEK. Could you point that out? Only because you are asking the same from us. (However, just to be clear, I do hold that Saturday was the Sabbath in the OT…just like I hold to Sunday is the Sabbath in the NT.)

I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to hint that. I meant to just come right out and say it.

I don’t understand why I need to prove that Saturday was the Sabbath if you and I and everyone else is agreed on that..? So if we disagree on the timing of Christ’s return, are you going to challenge me to prove that He left in the first place?

Our point of disagreement on this particular issue is the New Testament definition of the Sabbath, unless I’m just really not following the flow of things here (which is possible.) You believe, I think, that Sunday = the Lord’s Day = the Sabbath. So for you to win the case here, it seems you would have to prove that the Lawgiver has given us sufficient Scriptural warrant for changing the day to Sunday. I, on the other hand, believe that the Sabbath falls in the same category as the sacrifices, circumcision, and temple as signs which find their fulfillment, and thus their terminus, in Christ; so proving that the Old Testament Sabbath was on Saturday, while a total non-issue from the get-go, does nothing to aid or hinder my case. Your case is the one that is dependant on the days.

Have I missed something?

Gordan, your missing my point (granted, I am doing a very poor job of making it): you said above that we must have sufficient warrant for CHANGING the day to Sunday. But what I am trying to tell you is that the OT law never specifically prescribes SATURDAY as the ‘official’ day of Sabbath…unless you can point out where Saturday or the 7th day OF THE WEEK is specifically outlined.

While you’re searching for an answer that you will not be able to provide, consider how this plays out with the Sabbath years, Sabbath feasts, etc.: If we were to begin practicing the Sabbath years (every 7th year we do no work, let weeds overtake our crops, etc.), when would we begin practice this 7th year? Is there an official ’saturday’ year? Was it this year? How about last year? Please, tell us where in scripture the specific Sabbath year is outlined for us! Surely the Lawgiver would tell us if a particular calendar year was the Sabbath year!

You see my point yet? To follow the Sabbath years, would have to follow the OT pattern of 6YEARS labor followed by 1 year of rest. We could dedicate ourselves to this system and begin the process right now, so then after 6YEARS we would enter the Sabbath year.

Oddly enough, you are demanding that I show that the Lawgiver blessed Sunday as the Sabbath while you yourself have not shown where He specifically blessed Saturday as the Sabbath!

I see the point you make and it is one that I have had for some time as well. However, since committing to memory Exodus 20:1-17, the use of the seventh day is specifically outlined in terms of creation and the Sabbath of God therein, but you are correct in pointing to the fact where the particular day is not outlined when given to men. They just began at day one and followed a pattern, much like you are speaking of in terms of sabbath years.

Gordan,

I understand where you are coming from as well. While I don’t know that there is this this explicit overarching change of days, it does seem that the principle of the fourth commandment is in play. I guess I would have to ask the question, if the law, as Paul says, shows us the exceeding sinfulness of sin, then do you use the fourth commandment along with the other nine in demonstrating to people how they break that commandment as well? I realize in asking this that you view it ceremonially, so I probably already have that answer:) But I am curious, how to understand it is not moral as well.

Again, I would say that Saturday was not blessed, but simply the pattern of 6days labor and then one day of rest. Thus, the Sabbath was NEVER meant to be just a Saturday, but the clear principle of the 7th day after 6 days of labor.

And as far as Christ fulfililng the Sabbath…well, to quote Hebrews, ‘there still remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God’.

I would not call the Sabbath rule a “ceremonial” law, but rather something like “didactic” or “typological.” It was always about Christ, I mean, and was meant as an object lesson, pointing to the gospel.

Nathan,

I finally see what you are saying re: Satuday…I think.

However, let me point out in your Hebrews quote above that the writer stressed that the Sabbath that remains is a rest that is entered only on the condition of persevering faith, and consequently is prohibited to the disobedient. On your view, the Sabbath is (strictly speaking) “entered” every seventh day, whether a man believes or not. The simple passage of time causes us to enter the Sabbath day. This seems to nullify the writer’s argument altogether, whose purpose is to show that the ultimate Sabbath (which remains for God’s people) must be a completely different thing than the Jews of the day envisioned. He explicitly equates entering the real Sabbath with obeying the Gospel in 4:1-2, where failing to enter in is chalked up to not believing the good news.

Additionally, any fair reading of Hebrews 3-4 must show (even to a Sabbatarian) that the Sabbath spoken of therein is not the one-in-seven day of rest. So to wrench that particular phrase completely from its context and use it as you have is a bit baffling to me.

I think Calvin in his commentary on this passage is much more clear on this than I could be (as are Matthew Henry, John Gill, and the 1599 Geneva Bible notes, for starters.) Since I thought you might challenge my assertion on this, I’ve been picking through all the commentaries I have or have access to, even some from differing theological backgrounds than the ones I’ve mentioned, and I have yet to see anything other than the idea that rest in Christ through faith is what is being urged in the passage.

(Of course, that doesn’t mean that me and my homies are correct, but I’m just sayin’…)

Regarding Saturday vs. Sunday, I will go into more later, because I have much more to say about it, but for the time being I hope you recognize that there never was nor could be a set ‘day’, as if we look to the sky to know what day it is, when we can tell a difference between Saturday and Sunday. Are we currently on the Jewish calendar? No. Are we on the calendar that God used in the garden? Prove it. What calendar do we really go by? Uh, the calendar isn’t the issue at all, the issue is the pattern of 6days labor per one day of rest, which so clearly our entire culture has adopted anyway with the ‘week-end’, the ‘case of the Mondays’, etc.

I can even agree that we still need to be reminded that there remains an ultimate fulfillment in heaven of the Sabbath rest. The point of contention then becomes, what is the best way to do that reminding? I would say, because of passages like 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that preaching the Word is the God-ordained way of reminding us to trust/rest in Christ. To me, continuing to observe the day is very much like the Dispensational insistence that the sacrifices will be resumed in the Millennial temple, in order to keep reminding everyone of what Christ did for us.