Do you think the “message” that arminians preach contain the Gospel? You noted that

the Arminian is certainly more passionate about proclaiming his message to the masses, but the Calvinist is certainly more passionate about proclaiming the gospel to the masses -the foolishness of the cross and all.

Anyone can be passionate about reaching the lost when the message has been dumbed down to a culturally acceptable self help program, and thus that message is widely proclaimed. But it is quite another thing to be faithful in proclaiming the foolishness of the cross, knowing the response that is likely to follow.

Does “his message” lead people to the Gospel and ultimately salvation?

An Arminian who has his Romans Road memorized can spout it off in the checkout line at the supermarket and walk away patting himself on the back for being a faithful witness. But I really need to sit down with you in a place where we won’t be terribly distracted. So “redeeming the time” of the elevator ride by “witnessing” is not only not going to work for me, but I think it can be quite counterproductive, if I wind up having just enough time to confuse somebody.

I am excited to share the gospel, but not every half-minute in a stranger’s earshot strikes me as an opportunity.

Well in all fairness, since we are not looking at any one specific gospel message, then determining whether it is in line with scripture is impossible. But, I understand what you mean (I think): Overall, that is, do Arminians preach a true gospel?

I wouldn’t be honoring the testimony of scripture if I said that the
Arminian gospel is the pure gospel as taught in scripture. However, for the most part, I would stop way short of calling the Arminian gospel a false gospel. That is, there are many gospel presentations that are flawed but that contain enough truth for God to use.

To take it even one step further, I know many false gospel presentations that lead people to salvation. That is, I know of Catholics and even Mormons who have come to real, saving faith in Christ by being exposed to just a nugget of truth within these false systems. It is God who draws, not men, and so He is free to draw people any way He chooses. Ultimately, however, everyone who is saved comes back to the Word of God which pierces the heart.

Thus, it would be a terrible mistake to look at the results of a gospel presentation –whether a Catholic one or an Arminian one–, and say, ‘well, I can put up with it because look at who is being saved by it’. All religions/systems that teach the Bible have the potential to accidently cause someone to come across the pure gospel.

Therefore, no, most Arminian gospel presentations do not cross into false doctrine category, but they without a doubt are dishonoring to God and we should love people enough to tell them so.

SDG

SDG

God help us be obidient to preach the true gospel.

1 Cor 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

Why do you suppose this is?

1. Christianity’s main “growth centers” around the world today are not in white, English-speaking cultures. Chritianity is growing rapidly in Africa, South America, and Asia. Christianity is in fact on the verge of regressing, if not there already, in the white West.

2. The underlying implication of your question, which is the point I think you’re trying to make, is this: converts to Christianity are more a product of culture than any sovereign decision on God’s part. But this puts the cart before the horse. If there are some cultures that are more Chrisitan than others, it is because of all the converts and believers in that culture’s ancestry.

3. We don’t believe there’s any problem with affirming God’s absolute sovereignty in salvation on one hand, and on the other affirming that being born and raised in a Gospel-friendly culture is a particular blessing and is likely to result in more Christians. God will save His elect and one of the means He uses to that end is placing them where the Gospel is preached.

It’s as if you’re suggesting that God has singled out these other races for condemnation, indicated by the lack of the popularity (and common-ness) of the Gospel.

The racial profile of Christianity right now is a snapshot in time. It used to be that only folks living around Jerusalem could be saved, because that’s where the message was. By God’s grace, that has greatly expanded. In time, it will continue. It won’t be long before these other races you’re talking about will represent the majority of Christians worldwide. Then, I suppose someone could come along and say, “Gee, God must’ve singled out white folks for condemnation.”

In other words, CAN God save those who have never heard the Gospel from the mouth of man? Does He? If God is sovereign, He can.

No, I’m saying that God has chosen to use the means of preaching (normally) to save the elect. He’s chosen the elect and He’s also determined how they will be saved. I would say that He uses the means of the Gospel almost exclusively. I believe He is free to act without, beyond, or above the means He normally uses.

But He will not save contrary to the Gospel. I mean, you can’t refuse Christ and hope that God will go some other route to save you.

Further, why does “Power” alone take pre-eminence over all other possible attributes assigned to God (love, justice, mercy, etc)?

Where in Scripture is God defined primarily as “Power”?

John wrote:
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13)

We see clearly in this passage that it is God who’s in charge of the New Birth. It’s not of “blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor of the WILL OF MAN, but of God!!!

Soli Deo Gloria!

No Calvinist denies that men “play a role” in their salvation. We simply believe that role is purely passive. There are things we have to “do.” We have to repent and believe the Gospel ourselves; but we do not believe humans can stir these things up from within themselves. They are gifts from God. But in those who are saved, they must be displayed. God gives repentance; but you must actually repent.

What we deny is that we can cooperate with God to earn our salvation. We believe we are saved by the work of Christ alone.

So, that is why your question about why can’t it be both is wrong from the outset.

Calvinism: Salvation is all of God.
Synergism: Salvation is mostly of God, and partly of man.

A thing can’t be A and non-A at the same time. Either it’s all of God, or it’s not.

I don’t understand your question about “power.” I haven’t seen anyone here posit it as some sort of primary or ultimate characteristic of God. Calvinists believe that election is all about love, and mercy, and compassion.

1) “Calvinists believe that election is all about love, and mercy, and compassion.”

Well, sure, if you’re one of the elect. How would you describe election to one of the non-elect, were you given the knowledge of who they were? How would you explain to them why you were granted salvation by God and they were not?

2) “We simply believe that role is purely passive.”
Do you personally feel as if you’re on auto-pilot and just sort of swept along in a tide of things you have no control over? To what degree does this passivity play out in everyday life? Everything or just spiritual things? I mean do you feel God moves you to do only God-related things (such as repentence) or do you feel that He’s in control over what time you get up in the morning, whether you drink tea instead of coffee, that sort of thing? (I don’t mean that to sound snide … many believe in that)

This is asking me to participate in a hypothetical situation which is actually an impossibility. I’ll admit off the bat that I don’t know why God chose to save me. But before we even get there, why would the non-elect care, anyway? None of them truly seeks God; none are really interested in pleasing Him on His terms. So, even if I had the perfect explanation, they wouldn’t be interested in hearing it, and even if it made perfect sense they would hate it.

In the real world, my responsibility is to preach the Gospel to everyone without distinction. If they wind up in hell anyway, I assume that either a) they’ll be completely cognizant of why, or b) they will be spewing too much hatred and venom to care why.

As to your other question, no I don’t feel inactive at all. I am faced with choices for which I am held morally responsible. I do believe all things whatsoever may happen have been ordained. But when I do evil, I get all the credit for that because I do it most willingly, of my own “free will,” nobody forcing my hand.

Now I know that’s a tough one to wrap a human brain around. If God controls all things, how does He then still find fault? This is precisely the issue Paul addresses in Romans 9. At some point, as a simple country preacher, I have realize that IS what the Book says, and I’m under obligation to believe it, even if I can’t figure out how all the gears mesh together. I admit that the Incarnation and Trinity still boggle my mind in similar fashion, but this is not an excuse to disbelieve these things.

I have let this conversation go on (for several months now) in hopes that you would pay closer attention to the specific words of scripture in some of these areas. But as I have said to you before, the words of scripture must be the centerpiece of all discussion here. If you read my beliefs as stated on this blog, I hold that the only knowable truth to man is revealed in the 66 books of the Bible. Thus, unless you wish to counter my or anyone else’s assertion with a biblical text that supports your position, then I think we should cease this discussion.

You asked earlier why man cannot play a small role in the salvation process, and the Apostle Paul directly answers that question in saying:

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. -Rom 4:4

If man can DO anything for salvation, then that salvation is earned just as a laborer earns his wages.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. -Rom 3:27

One more comment; to the person who said that he couldn’t give a gospel presentation in a minute or two…yes you can…if you remember that you’re not responsible for the outcome…you’re just the delivery system…

www.wayofthemaster.com has some good resources to help…I never leave home without a tract or two in my pocket for the times in the grocery line when there is only a second or two to make contact with someone. Usually there is more time than we think their is…