That’s essentially how I felt writing this post. This post is simply a rehash of my original thoughts and convictions upon coming across these words. My, how easy it is to fall into the same line of thinking that this woman describes.

SDG

I do think you are correct. However, I find the doctrines of grace to work so much the other way in my life. Frankly, God is all I have to hold onto and quite possibly this gracious gift of God is what keeps me desperate for Him. I do see how easy it would be to fall into the mindset you described were it not for the other circumstances in our lives which tend to mold and shape us through the divine hand of God. With that said, I pray that God would keep us from using His truth in order that we may somehow think we are justified in neglecting, even forsaking our duties as believers.

Thanks,

Jon, the link is here, and tread lightly. Once you visit (seeing her most recent posts) you’ll probably realize why I didn’t link to her in my article. I’m not trying to start any trouble or get people all riled up; I’m actually hoping that we can use this example to check our own hearts.

Forget the Roman Catholic thing for a moment. Would this be an issue if she had converted to another variant of Protestantism? What I’m trying to ask is if you think it’s necessary to believe in the five points of Calvinism to be among the “elect”. IOW, must you believe in election to be among the elect? I don’t think even Spurgeon thought as such (which is why even he’s spurned over at “outsidethecamp.org” - a group for whom the term “hyper-Calvinists” would apply I think).

By mentioning prayer, I only meant to point out how we Calvinists, who are convinced of God’s sovereignty, can often have poor prayer lives. I did not set out to specifically point out where her deficiencies were, but obviously, complaining that God never answered her prayers gives a little glimpse into this area of her life.

No, Calvinism is certainly not necessary for salvation. However, every true Christian is most certainly a Calvinists in practice (or in heart), because anyone who truly believes they do anything to merit their salvation before God, is trusting in their own righteousness instead of Christ’s alone. Thankfully, most Arminians that I know are not completely consistent; being that they reject Calvinism, but embrace it with their lives (they are inconsistent).

SDG

Well, I’m not sure it’s always so much of a doubting of God’s sovereignty as it is wondering what the intent was in causing it (or allowing it). I’m don’t think one should necessarily feel “reassured” to be told that “God is sovereign” if their family was murdered with a machete in the Sudan, say. Was it decreed as a punishment on the dead? Perhaps it was a punishment directed at us or the person committing the crime? Perhaps it wasn’t a punishment at all? Perhaps it’s being done to teach us some virtue?

How do you suggest a believer is supposed to interpret such events (if we even are at all)?

I think that while we need to be able to affirm that, yes, God has ordained such events to (a) our good, and (b) His glory according to the counsel of His will, we also need to be able to say, “I don’t know.” That God has ordained said events doesn’t mean we get to know why.

-Rob

For me, that’s when “the rubber meets the road” in the whole life of faith: Can you trust that what has happened to you is ultimately for your good even when you can’t know the immediate “Why” behind it? Can you trust that God loves you and considers you one of His own, when the most natural way of interpreting your circumstances is to come away thinking, “God must hate me.”?

It’s easy to believe when we’re comfortable.

Job 40:8, 9 “8 “Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified? 9 Have you an arm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His?”

As noted in other comments we must place our faith in the Covenant faithfulness of God, He is just, He is good, He will do all things well. On top of that He is merciful and gracious, and what He does will be for our good….even in Job’s circumstances this proved to be the case.

Also note the faith of Habakkuk who prays these words after God has revealed to him the impending judgement upon Judah at the hands of Babylon,

Habakkuk 3:16-19 “16 When I heard, my body trembled; My lips quivered at the voice; Rottenness entered my bones; And I trembled in myself, That I might rest in the day of trouble. When he comes up to the people, He will invade them with his troops. 17 Though the fig tree may not blossom, Nor fruit be on the vines; Though the labor of the olive may fail, And the fields yield no food; Though the flock may be cut off from the fold, And there be no herd in the stalls– 18 Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation. 19 The LORD God is my strength; He will make my feet like deer’s feet, And He will make me walk on my high hills. To the Chief Musician. With my stringed instruments.”

Now THAT is faith.

JP

James, I would agree with the three excellent answers above by Rob, Gordan, and JP. But as I have asked you before, how would YOU interpret those events from the standpoint of God being a simply bystander? Is a God who cannot control the evil of man worth worshipping? Certainly not. But a God who works all things after the counsel of His will, being that His character is the absolute of perfection, assures us that whatever happens, happens for our good (if we are believers).

Let me share an illustration that someone gave to me one time:

A wise old Chinese gentleman lived on the troubled Mongolian border. One day his favorite horse, a beautiful white mare, jumped the fence and was seized on the other side by the enemy. His friends came to comfort him. “We’re so sorry about your horse,” they said. “That’s bad news.”

“How do you know it’s bad news?” he asked. “It might be good news.”

A week later, the Chinaman looked out his window to see his mare returning at breakneck speed, and alongside her was a beautiful stallion. He put both horses into the enclosure, and his friends came to admire the new addition. “What a beautiful horse,” they said. “That’s good news.”

“What is wrong with you people?” replied the man to his neighbors. “You cannot say whether this is good news or bad.” “Say only that the horse has returned, and leave it at that.”

The next day, the man’s only son decided to try riding the stallion. It threw him, and he landed painfully, breaking his leg. The friends made another visit, all of them sympathetic, saying, “We’re so sorry about this. It’s such bad news.”

“How do you know it’s bad news?” replied the man. “It might be good news.”

Within a month, a terrible war broke out between China and Mongolia. The Chinese recruiters came through the area, pressing all the young men into the army. All of them perished—except for the Chinaman’s son, who couldn’t go off to war because of his broken leg.

“You see,” said the gentleman, “the things you considered good were actually bad, and the things that seemed to be bad news were actually for our good.”

As creatures, we have absolutely no idea what is good for us and what isn’t –as far as circumstances go. God, on the other hand, has the big picture and His perfect will planned out. It is completely foolish to call anything good or bad from our standpoint, whether it is a hurricane or a mass gunman. Yes, those things can be bad in a temporal realm, but in an eternal realm, as God’s elect, nothing will ever turn out to be bad.

SDG

First of all, I don’t think the question is whether He can or not but whether He does or not. Further, it implies that the universe as it is is exactly as He desires it. I would find this a troubling prospect, given its current condition.

Secondly, you’re placing specific conditions on what you deem to be worthy of a deity. This is fine, but your conditions differ than mine. If He lacks “power”, He’s not worthy of your time it seems. Personally, I care more that He’s good than that He is all-powerful. If a malevolent being had all the power, it doesn’t mean I’d worship it. In fact, I’d hope I’d be able to retain my conscience and refrain from doing so.

James, why would we care what you find to be troubling? Furthermore, why would God care? Does He answer to your view of what is good and what isn’t? You need to ask yourself who made whom.

James said: you’re placing specific conditions on what you deem to be worthy of a deity.

Do you not see that you did the exact same thing you accuse me of when you stated ‘I would find this a troubling prospect’ a sentence above?

James, again and again people on this blog have asked you to back up your position with scripture. You have failed to do so. We must get our idea of Who God is from His revealed word, not our own philosophical reasoning. As natural sinners and enemies of God, we completely lack the capacity to understand God, or to even judge between right and wrong. And yet, you seem to continually place your reasoning and your opinion of what you think God is, as some kind of ’standard’ that God must meet to warrant your attention.

Please produce scriptural evidence for your assertions, that is, if you are going to begin to convince anyone that you words hold any weight.

Here’s what’s happening: I quote Scripture passage A which I suggest means one thing, then I am told we can’t take it to mean THAT because we have to take it in context of Scripture passage B which implies something contrary. Well, that’s fine, but how do you KNOW that it isn’t the other way around? On what basis do you come down on side B and not A? What METHOD are you using to determine what to take as hyperbole and what to take at face value? Historical records or studies of ancient languages? Human logic and reasoning? The opinion of a theologian you respect?

–

You ask: “why would we care what you find to be troubling?”

Well, you don’t have to care. My suggestion is simply that we ALL (me included) place parameters on what we deem worthy of our worship. For the Calvinist, it’s the attribute of power and sovereignty (or what the one understands those words to mean), as you’ve admitted. On a more personal level, I’m trying to understand why that alone takes pre-eminence over other values like Justice, Mercy, Goodness, etc.

Can you just answer the “family murdered in the Sudan” question, as you yourself best understand the answer? You can’t beat something with nothing. Complain all day that the Calvinistic idea of sovereignty is wrong, but if you’ve got nothing to replace it with, then it’s simply whining.

I’m not sure there’s much of a difference between saying God permissively allowed something to occur and suggesting He willed it to occur. Either way, He chose to allow it to pass, yes? His inactivity in preventing it is simply another form of activity in a way (a negative action, in a sense).

Either way, you’re left with unanswerable questions: so instead of “Why did God cause this?” it becomes “Why did God allow it?” …. doesn’t really matter either way, does it? Both questions assume He COULD do something otherwise.

I think that’s pretty reasonable. Good “mulling” job, there.

But I think that those of us who are big on sovereignty would phrase things differently in the case of a “bad thing” that is caused by men sinning, rather than by natural causes like a tornado or something. I’d say, yes, God sent the tornado: He caused it and directed it precisely where He wanted. But the “family slaughtered in Sudan” I would not attribute to God “causing” it. Men’s sin still belongs to ones who do it. I realize some still argue that this makes God the author of sin because that’s what He ordained that they should do, but this is not a biblical way to speak, in my opinion. So, in the Sudan scenario, I’d probably phrase it in terms of God “allowing” rather than causing.

This is hardly something I’d believe to be theologically accurate.