Comments on: Authority of Elders and Blogging http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/ "Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you...” Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:46:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.2 By: Gordan http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-195 Gordan Thu, 03 May 2007 12:20:15 +0000 http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-195 Dude, I think you nailed it above. My re-phrasing of the point at which you nailed it is this: The authority over the flock of an elder is co-extensive with that elder's teaching of the Scripture. That is, when the Scripture is taught faithfully, then that teaching is authoritative, and the congregation is accountable to God for it. Aside from that, the elder remains under the instructions for discipline found in Matthew 18. (1) Confront the sinner privately, urging repentance. (2) If unrepentant, bring an elder along with you to confront him again. (3) If still obstinate, bring the matter before the whole congregation and treat the man as an outsider/unbeliever. I note that though the elders specifically become involved in that process, yet they do not rule by fiat at any point in it. Dude, I think you nailed it above.

My re-phrasing of the point at which you nailed it is this:

The authority over the flock of an elder is co-extensive with that elder’s teaching of the Scripture. That is, when the Scripture is taught faithfully, then that teaching is authoritative, and the congregation is accountable to God for it.

Aside from that, the elder remains under the instructions for discipline found in Matthew 18. (1) Confront the sinner privately, urging repentance. (2) If unrepentant, bring an elder along with you to confront him again. (3) If still obstinate, bring the matter before the whole congregation and treat the man as an outsider/unbeliever. I note that though the elders specifically become involved in that process, yet they do not rule by fiat at any point in it.

]]> By: tim http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-197 tim Fri, 04 May 2007 01:47:39 +0000 http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-197 I second Gordan's comments, only I must confess the Matt. 18 does not necessarily apply at least in the first two stages to elders, but rather sins against brothers and that the brother or sister confronts the other brother or sisters who has sinned against him/her. I think a couple of the questions might depend upon a certain individual basis. If a blogger did as you did a few months ago and asked questions and posed thoughts concerning certain, shall we say, eschatological conclusions, then I think the pastor should know his sheep well enough to know whether they are stirring up controversy or earnestly seeking to understand the Scriptures. Often pastors don't know their own sheep, nor do they esteem them higher than themselves and so their authority is dictatorial rather than Scriptural. I second Gordan’s comments, only I must confess the Matt. 18 does not necessarily apply at least in the first two stages to elders, but rather sins against brothers and that the brother or sister confronts the other brother or sisters who has sinned against him/her.

I think a couple of the questions might depend upon a certain individual basis. If a blogger did as you did a few months ago and asked questions and posed thoughts concerning certain, shall we say, eschatological conclusions, then I think the pastor should know his sheep well enough to know whether they are stirring up controversy or earnestly seeking to understand the Scriptures. Often pastors don’t know their own sheep, nor do they esteem them higher than themselves and so their authority is dictatorial rather than Scriptural.

]]> By: Nathan White http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-211 Nathan White Fri, 04 May 2007 21:48:52 +0000 http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-211 Tim, Yes, some of this might depend upon a certain individual basis, but even then it would be about sin, right? Gossip, Slander, dissention, or say, maybe specifically ridiculing the pastor or his teaching, etc. But, even in an individual situation type of thing, if there is no sin or accusation of sin, is there any authority? <strong>You said:</strong> <em>Often pastors don’t know their own sheep, nor do they esteem them higher than themselves and so their authority is dictatorial rather than Scriptural.</em> Amen. See my current recommendation of "The Reformed Pastor", which is profound...and yet many pastors could care less about what it means to truly 'Shepherd the Flock of God among you'. But, let me be clear: I don't know how I will ever attain to the character and blamelessness of what God demands from His leaders. I have been extremely convicted/overwhelmed by the calling that I thought I was headed for. Tim,
Yes, some of this might depend upon a certain individual basis, but even then it would be about sin, right? Gossip, Slander, dissention, or say, maybe specifically ridiculing the pastor or his teaching, etc. But, even in an individual situation type of thing, if there is no sin or accusation of sin, is there any authority?

You said: Often pastors don’t know their own sheep, nor do they esteem them higher than themselves and so their authority is dictatorial rather than Scriptural.

Amen. See my current recommendation of “The Reformed Pastor”, which is profound…and yet many pastors could care less about what it means to truly ‘Shepherd the Flock of God among you’. But, let me be clear: I don’t know how I will ever attain to the character and blamelessness of what God demands from His leaders. I have been extremely convicted/overwhelmed by the calling that I thought I was headed for.

]]> By: Jay Z http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-214 Jay Z Sat, 05 May 2007 02:08:47 +0000 http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-214 Well Nathan, your last sentence seems to be the right direction for any pastor to head in; being convicted and overwhelmed at their call to be a shepherd. Well Nathan, your last sentence seems to be the right direction for any pastor to head in; being convicted and overwhelmed at their call to be a shepherd.

]]> By: Tim http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-215 Tim Sat, 05 May 2007 11:47:17 +0000 http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-215 Nathan, I think Jay Z is right. Humility and honesty about the great calling upon pastors must be in place. Do you actually think I "feel" qualified? I am very forthright with my people. Our calling must be the witness of Christ, for no matter how excellently a pastor attains the qualifications, they will not be perfectly met. Let's not be deceived here. Those who ordain and send him forth must be those who examine him in those qualifications. He must be faithful with the Word of God. And in all of this, he is utterly dependent upon the grace that God alone can give. Remember, just as in salvation, God grants what He requires. Press on my brother. Nathan,

I think Jay Z is right. Humility and honesty about the great calling upon pastors must be in place. Do you actually think I “feel” qualified? I am very forthright with my people. Our calling must be the witness of Christ, for no matter how excellently a pastor attains the qualifications, they will not be perfectly met. Let’s not be deceived here. Those who ordain and send him forth must be those who examine him in those qualifications. He must be faithful with the Word of God. And in all of this, he is utterly dependent upon the grace that God alone can give. Remember, just as in salvation, God grants what He requires. Press on my brother.

]]> By: Tim http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-216 Tim Sat, 05 May 2007 12:05:48 +0000 http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-216 BTW, As to the individual basis. You asked, "Yes, some of this might depend upon a certain individual basis, but even then it would be about sin, right? Gossip, Slander, dissention, or say, maybe specifically ridiculing the pastor or his teaching, etc. But, even in an individual situation type of thing, if there is no sin or accusation of sin, is there any authority?" Well we are told provididentially by Peter (this seems to tie in well with the website:), that, 1 ¶ The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; <i>3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;</i> 4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Notice how Peter exhorts the Shepherd's to care for the flock: not as lording it over them, but as examples. Remember, though elders have qualifications granted by God and though they do actually lead, they are also sheep of the Lord Jesus Christ. If there is no sin, then is there no authority is your question, I believe. Well ultimately the Scriptures are the authority and you would agee, so if there is a disagreement between a pastor and a member of his flock or the member is earnestly trying to bring all things together to understand and simply posts on it, then a pastor, in my opinion is not being an example and certainly not shepherding that person if he is bearing down hard on him. However, if that individual is being unruly, shooting off at the mouth, being antagonistic, without serious regards to trying to understand whatever position his pastor holds, then yes, there should be measures taken by the pastor to bring discipline. BTW,

As to the individual basis.

You asked, “Yes, some of this might depend upon a certain individual basis, but even then it would be about sin, right? Gossip, Slander, dissention, or say, maybe specifically ridiculing the pastor or his teaching, etc. But, even in an individual situation type of thing, if there is no sin or accusation of sin, is there any authority?”

Well we are told provididentially by Peter (this seems to tie in well with the website:), that,

1 ¶ The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:
2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;
3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;
4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

Notice how Peter exhorts the Shepherd’s to care for the flock: not as lording it over them, but as examples. Remember, though elders have qualifications granted by God and though they do actually lead, they are also sheep of the Lord Jesus Christ. If there is no sin, then is there no authority is your question, I believe. Well ultimately the Scriptures are the authority and you would agee, so if there is a disagreement between a pastor and a member of his flock or the member is earnestly trying to bring all things together to understand and simply posts on it, then a pastor, in my opinion is not being an example and certainly not shepherding that person if he is bearing down hard on him. However, if that individual is being unruly, shooting off at the mouth, being antagonistic, without serious regards to trying to understand whatever position his pastor holds, then yes, there should be measures taken by the pastor to bring discipline.

]]> By: JP http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-219 JP Sun, 06 May 2007 15:36:42 +0000 http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-219 Nathan, This is a useful discussion here's my humble opinion. First of all we need to understand something of the sphere's in which we live, all of us, have three I believe....state, church, family, perhaps you could title them differently. Now think of the old Venn diagrams you did at school (perhaps) where there was some crossover...authority is like that....so the state has authority over me in certain circumstances, e.g. tax, civil law, but no authority in matters of faith, as a father and husband I am the authority in my home (a god ordained institution every bit as much as state and church) and both the state and church have some, mostly passive authority in that sphere. In church neither family authorities nor state authority have a de jure authority, only God and the collective church can give authority and put themselves under that authority voluntarily. This is a rather long way of saying that pastors only have a passive secondary authority over the extra-church activities of the church's members. However if those extra-church activities begin to bring shame or disgrace publicly upon the local church or the name of Christ, or even if there is a more private spiritual malaise setting in upon the person, then the pastors not only have a right but an obligation to counsel the person, and perhaps in this context to counsel a cessation of blogging. It is of course up to the individual to receive the counsel or not. If they choose not to and the public shame or private maliase continue then the pastor has authority indeed surely is obligated to instigate appropriate discipline with the aim of restoration. The theory being dealt with I now offer theses answers to your scenarios. ONE - Certainly not the pastors have no authority in this area TWO - Probably not unless said opinions fall under scenario FOUR, however the wise pastor will at least discuss these issues with a view to clarification, not neccessarily stopping the blogging, probably not stopping in fact (See reason above). THREE - No, pastors must be governed by truth alone, if there is a character issue they must deal with that, not the public manifestation of that. To stop the blogging and do nothing more is a sign of cowardly evasion of the real issue. FOUR - Yes they are obligated by the Lord to maintain the corporate witness of the church and can and should take constructive action to bring the brother or sister back into conformity with their church's constitition and confession etc. Again they can merely request cessation, they cannot force anyone. However failure to do so will be read as a contined discordant spirit and discipline may need to be enacted. By the way I have not read the 4 essays above. Maybe I should have before I posted this. JP Nathan,
This is a useful discussion here’s my humble opinion. First of all we need to understand something of the sphere’s in which we live, all of us, have three I believe….state, church, family, perhaps you could title them differently. Now think of the old Venn diagrams you did at school (perhaps) where there was some crossover…authority is like that….so the state has authority over me in certain circumstances, e.g. tax, civil law, but no authority in matters of faith, as a father and husband I am the authority in my home (a god ordained institution every bit as much as state and church) and both the state and church have some, mostly passive authority in that sphere. In church neither family authorities nor state authority have a de jure authority, only God and the collective church can give authority and put themselves under that authority voluntarily. This is a rather long way of saying that pastors only have a passive secondary authority over the extra-church activities of the church’s members. However if those extra-church activities begin to bring shame or disgrace publicly upon the local church or the name of Christ, or even if there is a more private spiritual malaise setting in upon the person, then the pastors not only have a right but an obligation to counsel the person, and perhaps in this context to counsel a cessation of blogging. It is of course up to the individual to receive the counsel or not. If they choose not to and the public shame or private maliase continue then the pastor has authority indeed surely is obligated to instigate appropriate discipline with the aim of restoration. The theory being dealt with I now offer theses answers to your scenarios.
ONE - Certainly not the pastors have no authority in this area
TWO - Probably not unless said opinions fall under scenario FOUR, however the wise pastor will at least discuss these issues with a view to clarification, not neccessarily stopping the blogging, probably not stopping in fact (See reason above).
THREE - No, pastors must be governed by truth alone, if there is a character issue they must deal with that, not the public manifestation of that. To stop the blogging and do nothing more is a sign of cowardly evasion of the real issue.
FOUR - Yes they are obligated by the Lord to maintain the corporate witness of the church and can and should take constructive action to bring the brother or sister back into conformity with their church’s constitition and confession etc. Again they can merely request cessation, they cannot force anyone. However failure to do so will be read as a contined discordant spirit and discipline may need to be enacted.

By the way I have not read the 4 essays above. Maybe I should have before I posted this.

JP

]]> By: Nathan White http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-222 Nathan White Mon, 07 May 2007 02:19:00 +0000 http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/05/02/authority-of-elders-and-blogging/#comment-222 JP, Thank you for the comments. I found them very helpful. I agree with your conclusions, particularly your answers to scnerios TWO and THREE. --Regarding your answer to TWO, there comes a point where true 'shepherding' should come into the picture here, no? That is, the elder should have the confidence in the fact that he has done his divine duty in teaching the flock AND building a relationship with them to the point where they TRUST his teaching/leadership. That way, when someone in the church starts talking contrary, he have the peace of mind knowing that his striving will earn him the respect/attention of those who might come across this different teaching. --Regarding your answer to THREE, you make an excellent point about the root issues in that type of situation. If the blogging ceases, then most certainly the blogger is going to simply find another avenue to express his views. But if the character issue is dealt with, then the elder can prove that he is truly interested in the truth/heart of the matter, instead of simply abusing his power and trying to dictate things. Great stuff, SDG JP,

Thank you for the comments. I found them very helpful.

I agree with your conclusions, particularly your answers to scnerios TWO and THREE.
–Regarding your answer to TWO, there comes a point where true ’shepherding’ should come into the picture here, no? That is, the elder should have the confidence in the fact that he has done his divine duty in teaching the flock AND building a relationship with them to the point where they TRUST his teaching/leadership. That way, when someone in the church starts talking contrary, he have the peace of mind knowing that his striving will earn him the respect/attention of those who might come across this different teaching.
–Regarding your answer to THREE, you make an excellent point about the root issues in that type of situation. If the blogging ceases, then most certainly the blogger is going to simply find another avenue to express his views. But if the character issue is dealt with, then the elder can prove that he is truly interested in the truth/heart of the matter, instead of simply abusing his power and trying to dictate things.

Great stuff,

SDG

]]>