I came across this verse recently in my daily devotions, seems pretty relevant to this discussion.

Joshua 8:35 “35 There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not read before all the assembly of Israel, with the women, the little ones, and the strangers who were living among them.”

Seems that there was no segregation in the old Israel! In general I think where the church is gathered it should be all the church and their children. This does not preclude other childrens meetings at other times/evenings etc. In our circles we call such united meetings “The Gathered Church” and that included all.

JP

I’ll give you most of that. There are elders who are more used of God in teaching and preaching, and there are those who are frankly better at than others, due to the gifting of God.

However, I still don’t think this warrants differing labels, dividing one elder from another and seemingly setting up different classes of them.

I am, however, against contests, games, skits, and puppet shows during Sunday School and Children’s church, which, obviously have absolutely nothing to do with worship.

You said: “Our Presbyterian brothers commonly divide the elders into two groups (”teaching” and “ruling”) for instance, which cannot at all be justified by the Word. An elder is an elder.”

I tend to differ with you on this one. Although every elder should be able to teach and lead the congregation, not all of them are going to have the job descriptions. Notice what Paul said to Timothy:

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.”

This implies that some elders have a specific role of preaching while some other don’t. I am in agreement with you, however, in the fact that Presbyterians take this way to far almost to the point of a clergy-mindset.

I definitely agree with you, no question. But maybe we need to step back and examine why this is so. Personally, I see some of this as a result of the men failing to fulfill their responsibilities, and the women just doing whatever is necessary to survive.

I forgot about the children’s church (or, “Christian Education”) head. That’s another knotty problem, and I feel for the young pastor who has to deal with it.

Secondly, I’m not sure I’m convinced of NOT ever separating for Sunday School before the main worship service. What would be the difference in this and in something else later in the week? Is this really a part of the RP? It has nothing to do with HOW we worship God, but more on organization, it appears. I just don’t know; still studying this one.

Gordan, I have had my run-ins with the organist, the children’s church head, the secretary (one secretary of the former mega-church I used to attend came on a blog one-time and ripped me to pieces), etc., so I’m not stupid enough to cross them anymore Also, with the old people who have sat in the same seat for 50years….or when they have a pew with their name on it….trust me, stay away from them too.

Additionally, I’ve noticed in small churches that there is a person who normally has dictatorial power over the day-to-day administration. Not an elder or deacon, no. She’s the Secretary. And woe be unto the young, idealistic pastor fresh out of seminary who tries to dislodge her!! The only thing he might do that is more detremental to his own health than that, is to try and suggest changes to the church’s music, by confronting the ORGANIST. The churches of God have lost many brave but foolish men in such quixotic endeavors.