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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;The way you worship determines the God you worship&#8217;</title>
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		<title>By: Nathan White</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-293</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 03:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bradley,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments. Here is a brief reply since I’m kind of swamped this week and don’t have a whole lot of time to interact:</p>
<p>First, this was an introductory post that I have yet to get back to. As you can see, I basically give no scriptural defense for the RP, as I simply wanted to get the discussion going. I will get back to this issue soon, but I assure you that this principle is rooted in much more scripture than just Deuteronomy. </p>
<p>Secondly, I’m not sure you and I have the same understanding of what the RP actually is. Books, microphones, illustrations, CDs, etc., are irrelevant to this discussion, in my opinion. That is, the RP asks the question of HOW we worship God, or, what do we DO to worship God. Do we corporately worship Him by doing underwater basket-weaving? Do we worship Him by having a corporate picture-painting contest (since you mentioned communication)?<br />
No, we corporately worship God through the means He has given us in His word. Things of administration that assist in these ends (such as a microphone) do nothing to change the content or the essence of the worship itself. The same scriptural means is still being employed, plain and simple. However, drama, on the other hand, is quite contrary to preaching, and is certainly inferior to preaching/teaching, being that it is a different substance altogether. Drama was wildly popular in the first century, but we see nothing of the sort from the Apostles/scripture. </p>
<p>The issue isn’t legalism at all, though many try to fit it in that mold. The issue is essentially sola scriptura, and the fact that God has not given us inadequate means for worship in His most holy Word. Would God have left us here without a command for drama (or example from scripture) if drama was so important for our spiritual growth/worship? Certainly not. God has spoken; I trust His word. </p>
<p>SDG</p>
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		<title>By: Bradley</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-292</link>
		<dc:creator>Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 01:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/#comment-292</guid>
		<description>Your blog assumes that &quot;drama&quot; and such things are ruled out by the regulative principle, but you nowhere make this connection clear.  I hold to the regulative principle also, but I think drama can mediate teaching, and is therefore an appropriate aid in worship for the sake teaching.  John Frame also takes this position in his book &quot;Worship in Spirit and Truth.&quot;  

Reformed people are often uptight and legalistic about the application of the regulative principle, but if John MacArthur (or Mark Dever, or any other pastor) sells books in his church, uses a microphone, or illustrates sermon material with stories which are not explicitly in the Bible, they have gone &quot;beyond&quot; what the scripture explicitly commands.  Yet we would not accuse them of violating the regulative principle because a microphone helps/aids that which is commanded, namely, teaching or preaching.  But as soon as we allow for something which is not explicitly commanded (such as using a microphone, selling books and/or audio CD&#039;s with sermons on them, etc.) we are admitting that what is commanded can be fulfilled with MEANS which are not explicitly in the Bible.  Thus, if you wish to stick with ONLY what is explicitly revealed, your going to have a tough time justifying many of the things which Reformed churches take for granted (such as the selling of books or phamplets, the use of microphones and pulpits, telling unbiblical stories for illustration purposes instead of sticking to those illustrations which are in the Bible, the use of hymnals, etc.).  

Also, the regulative principle is found in Deuteronomy, thus, if we were to limit ourselves to ONLY that which is commanded concerning the new covenant, this would rule out the regulative principle itself.  If we escape this dilema by making that which is not rescended still applicable, then we must take seriously the commands in the psalms about praising the Lord with durms, and praising Him with loud shouts and stringed instruments.  

Any thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your blog assumes that &#8220;drama&#8221; and such things are ruled out by the regulative principle, but you nowhere make this connection clear.  I hold to the regulative principle also, but I think drama can mediate teaching, and is therefore an appropriate aid in worship for the sake teaching.  John Frame also takes this position in his book &#8220;Worship in Spirit and Truth.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Reformed people are often uptight and legalistic about the application of the regulative principle, but if John MacArthur (or Mark Dever, or any other pastor) sells books in his church, uses a microphone, or illustrates sermon material with stories which are not explicitly in the Bible, they have gone &#8220;beyond&#8221; what the scripture explicitly commands.  Yet we would not accuse them of violating the regulative principle because a microphone helps/aids that which is commanded, namely, teaching or preaching.  But as soon as we allow for something which is not explicitly commanded (such as using a microphone, selling books and/or audio CD&#8217;s with sermons on them, etc.) we are admitting that what is commanded can be fulfilled with MEANS which are not explicitly in the Bible.  Thus, if you wish to stick with ONLY what is explicitly revealed, your going to have a tough time justifying many of the things which Reformed churches take for granted (such as the selling of books or phamplets, the use of microphones and pulpits, telling unbiblical stories for illustration purposes instead of sticking to those illustrations which are in the Bible, the use of hymnals, etc.).  </p>
<p>Also, the regulative principle is found in Deuteronomy, thus, if we were to limit ourselves to ONLY that which is commanded concerning the new covenant, this would rule out the regulative principle itself.  If we escape this dilema by making that which is not rescended still applicable, then we must take seriously the commands in the psalms about praising the Lord with durms, and praising Him with loud shouts and stringed instruments.  </p>
<p>Any thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: Gordan</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:16:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/#comment-126</guid>
		<description>I was just reading a short biography of Ulrich Zwingli, and he seems to have been the first Reformed advocate of RPW, while at the same time in Germany, Luther still held to the Catholic version (if it&#039;s not outlawed, it&#039;s allowed.)

However, they mentioned a point about his application of RP that illustrates what I mean by a more &quot;strict&quot; version of it. He apparently got rid of the use of the organ as an accompanying instrument, though retaining others; the reason was that the Scripture didn&#039;t specifically mention the organ. (There was some speculation that Zwingli preferred to err on the stricter side for fear of allowing more-than-necessary use of material objects in worship: maybe he had been influenced by writings that retained a bit of gnostic dualism.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just reading a short biography of Ulrich Zwingli, and he seems to have been the first Reformed advocate of RPW, while at the same time in Germany, Luther still held to the Catholic version (if it&#8217;s not outlawed, it&#8217;s allowed.)</p>
<p>However, they mentioned a point about his application of RP that illustrates what I mean by a more &#8220;strict&#8221; version of it. He apparently got rid of the use of the organ as an accompanying instrument, though retaining others; the reason was that the Scripture didn&#8217;t specifically mention the organ. (There was some speculation that Zwingli preferred to err on the stricter side for fear of allowing more-than-necessary use of material objects in worship: maybe he had been influenced by writings that retained a bit of gnostic dualism.)</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan White</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-115</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/#comment-115</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Tim:&lt;/b&gt; I see your point, and we can hash that out sometime :) But, I interpret the RP as what we DO to worship God, not the decorations and stuff that often get brought up with this issue. 

&lt;b&gt;Barry:&lt;/b&gt; Papa Johns for me, bro! That church better cater to MY needs! :)

&lt;b&gt;Davide:&lt;/b&gt; Great comment. I was going to mention that 1 Tim passage as well. But regarding your question about &#039;songs, hymns, spiritual songs&#039;, NO, I do not take that in a wooden literal way. How do we define &#039;spiritual songs&#039; anyway? Doesn&#039;t that rule out like...nothing? I think the issue here is that Paul is making a point about TEACHING, believe it or not. Read the context of the verses, and we are to teach each other with songs. You know, like when you learned to sing &#039;Father Abraham&#039; and you knew that dispensationalism was false :)

&lt;b&gt;Title of my next post:&lt;/b&gt; &quot;Whoever controls how worship is done, is actually the one being worshipped.&quot; -Gordan, you are the man! And thanks for the link to Old Truth. What a great site.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Tim:</b> I see your point, and we can hash that out sometime <img src='http://shepherdtheflock.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  But, I interpret the RP as what we DO to worship God, not the decorations and stuff that often get brought up with this issue. </p>
<p><b>Barry:</b> Papa Johns for me, bro! That church better cater to MY needs! <img src='http://shepherdtheflock.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><b>Davide:</b> Great comment. I was going to mention that 1 Tim passage as well. But regarding your question about &#8217;songs, hymns, spiritual songs&#8217;, NO, I do not take that in a wooden literal way. How do we define &#8217;spiritual songs&#8217; anyway? Doesn&#8217;t that rule out like&#8230;nothing? I think the issue here is that Paul is making a point about TEACHING, believe it or not. Read the context of the verses, and we are to teach each other with songs. You know, like when you learned to sing &#8216;Father Abraham&#8217; and you knew that dispensationalism was false <img src='http://shepherdtheflock.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><b>Title of my next post:</b> &#8220;Whoever controls how worship is done, is actually the one being worshipped.&#8221; -Gordan, you are the man! And thanks for the link to Old Truth. What a great site.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordan</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/#comment-111</guid>
		<description>Jim at OldTruth.com has just posted a short article on &quot;the fear of the Lord,&quot; that I think relates very strongly to this topic. It&#039;s here:

http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.660

If you have no fear of God, then anything goes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim at OldTruth.com has just posted a short article on &#8220;the fear of the Lord,&#8221; that I think relates very strongly to this topic. It&#8217;s here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.660" rel="nofollow">http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.660</a></p>
<p>If you have no fear of God, then anything goes.</p>
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		<title>By: davide</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator>davide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/#comment-104</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s another question:

What about a worship service exclusively holding a Christmas Cantata?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s another question:</p>
<p>What about a worship service exclusively holding a Christmas Cantata?</p>
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		<title>By: Gordan</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/#comment-103</guid>
		<description>Nathan,

For me, I think the title of your post here is really the bottom line. In addition to that pithy statement, let me suggest another one:

Whoever controls how worship is done, is actually the one being worshipped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan,</p>
<p>For me, I think the title of your post here is really the bottom line. In addition to that pithy statement, let me suggest another one:</p>
<p>Whoever controls how worship is done, is actually the one being worshipped.</p>
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		<title>By: davide</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>davide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/#comment-102</guid>
		<description>I think the epistles of Timothy and Titus also give us very clear instruction as to what TO DO in the house of God. 

&quot;If I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of truth.&quot;

Tim, 
I don&#039;t know if I totally agree with you about the Christmas decor. I see your point, I&#039;m just not sure how distracting it would be to worship. I could be wrong.

On another note,
What I find interesting, is the fact that drama has been around since the beginning of time. Pluto and Aristotle spoke about the theatre. And it was prevelant during apostolic times. I think it is interesting that although drama was very big during that time, they never employed it in the church, although it would have been easy to do. 

Nathan, 
Here&#039;s a question for you. When Paul commands the church to sing the three kinds of songs (ie. psalms, hymns, spiritual songs) in Ephesians and Colossians, is he making a point about the importance of employing these specific various kinds of songs in worship, or simply making a general point about the importance of singing? In other words, are we to take this verse literally?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the epistles of Timothy and Titus also give us very clear instruction as to what TO DO in the house of God. </p>
<p>&#8220;If I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of truth.&#8221;</p>
<p>Tim,<br />
I don&#8217;t know if I totally agree with you about the Christmas decor. I see your point, I&#8217;m just not sure how distracting it would be to worship. I could be wrong.</p>
<p>On another note,<br />
What I find interesting, is the fact that drama has been around since the beginning of time. Pluto and Aristotle spoke about the theatre. And it was prevelant during apostolic times. I think it is interesting that although drama was very big during that time, they never employed it in the church, although it would have been easy to do. </p>
<p>Nathan,<br />
Here&#8217;s a question for you. When Paul commands the church to sing the three kinds of songs (ie. psalms, hymns, spiritual songs) in Ephesians and Colossians, is he making a point about the importance of employing these specific various kinds of songs in worship, or simply making a general point about the importance of singing? In other words, are we to take this verse literally?</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-101</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/#comment-101</guid>
		<description>I can just picture myself at the back of a long line where instead of a thin host you get a shot of coke and a chunk of greasy pizza.  That would be a slow moving line eh?  Are we talking Dominos?  If it&#039;s Papa Romanos I&#039;m moving to another church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can just picture myself at the back of a long line where instead of a thin host you get a shot of coke and a chunk of greasy pizza.  That would be a slow moving line eh?  Are we talking Dominos?  If it&#8217;s Papa Romanos I&#8217;m moving to another church.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-100</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shepherdtheflock.com/2007/04/21/the-way-you-worship-determines-the-god-you-worship/#comment-100</guid>
		<description>Nathan,

Pizza and coke?? Are you serious?  Is someone doing that?  Maybe we are farther down the drain than I thought:)  In regards to that, should we use wine or welch&#039;s?  You know the history with Mr. Welch, right?

You mentioned decorations and I am thinking of things within the area itself.  Maybe you could elaborate.  Should the national flag be in the midst of corporate worship?  Should statues or artist renderings of Jesus or angels be allowed?  What about Christmas trees?  It seems to me to be quite clear that these things would detract from the true worship of God.  Also, there are the &quot;hanging of the greens&quot; and such things as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathan,</p>
<p>Pizza and coke?? Are you serious?  Is someone doing that?  Maybe we are farther down the drain than I thought:)  In regards to that, should we use wine or welch&#8217;s?  You know the history with Mr. Welch, right?</p>
<p>You mentioned decorations and I am thinking of things within the area itself.  Maybe you could elaborate.  Should the national flag be in the midst of corporate worship?  Should statues or artist renderings of Jesus or angels be allowed?  What about Christmas trees?  It seems to me to be quite clear that these things would detract from the true worship of God.  Also, there are the &#8220;hanging of the greens&#8221; and such things as well.</p>
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